Joining the show this week is a veteran of the Boston start-up community and leader in engineering management platforms. Having served as the VP of Engineering to a company that as acquired for $1B, this guest is none other than the Co-Founder & CEO of Jellyfish, Andrew Lau.
Lau shares his journey from an engineer in startups to a CEO managing a high-growth company. He provides insights on aligning leadership and culture, fundraising, and work-life balance.
Takeaways:
Co-Founder Alignment: The Jellyfish team created a detailed vision for Jellyfish before starting the company. They established core values that emphasized culture, people, and building a scalable business. This became their North Star for decision-making.
Engineering for Growth: Jellyfish's platform helps engineering leaders align their teams’ work with broader business objectives. The company's vision is inspired by Salesforce’s transformation of sales management.
Early Customers through Discovery: The team interviewed over 50 VPEs and CTOs to deeply understand pain points in engineering management. These conversations led to a service-driven approach to validate Jellyfish’s product vision.
Startup for Grown-Ups: There was a conscious effort to build a "grown-up" startup that accommodates life responsibilities. They designed their business to work with their life stages, creating a sustainable culture.
Leadership Evolution: Andrew reflects on his transition from engineering management to being a CEO. This journey required learning sales, fundraising, and storytelling while balancing the operational and strategic demands of scaling a company.
Fundraising with Trust: Andrew describes the importance of aligning with investors who understand the domain and trust the founding team. Jellyfish's seed funding came from building relationships within the Venn diagram of trust and domain expertise.
Adapting to Change: As the tech landscape evolves with AI and macroeconomic shifts, Jellyfish focuses on being adaptable. Andrew emphasizes that startups have the agility to tackle new challenges, creating opportunities for growth and innovation.
Quote of the Show:
“It’s a marathon, it’s not a sprint. And we also live lives as humans here too… We have to make this thing work for us.” - Andrew Lau
Links:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amlau/
Twitter: https://x.com/amlau
Website: https://jellyfish.co/
Ways to Tune In:
Spotify:
Apple Podcasts:
Amazon Music: https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/7c6328f0-9b42-41db-8fe2-d263b4fbb261
Transistor:
https://podcast.notanotherceo.com/
David Politis: Today's guest has been building companies for the last two decades, a technologist at his core that has transformed into a great operator. He's a veteran in the Boston startup community. Before founding his own company, he served as VP of engineering at Endeca, which was acquired by Oracle.
In 2011, for over a billion dollars, his current company is the leading engineering management platform. They enable engineering, finance and business leaders to align engineering output with strategic business objectives. They have more than 600 customers, and they were recently named one of Forbes next billion dollar startups, co founder and CEO of Jellyfish.
Andrew Lau. Hey, Andrew.
Andrew Lau: David, thanks for having me here, man. This is going to be super fun. I'm
David Politis: I'm very excited. I'm very excited. I'm, I'm, uh, I'm happy Gail put us in touch and, uh, I'm, uh, I'm excited to do this. So let's jump into it. First question. What's [00:01:00] the one thing that you've done at Jellyfish, big or small, that's had the biggest impact and that you'll absolutely do again if you're CEO of another company in the future.
Andrew Lau: Oh, um, there's a lot of things we've done. I don't know how many of them are the right ones, but the one thing I think I recommend to future self, um, and other folks is that three co founders, me, David and Phil, and just a little context. I've known these guys for 25 years. They hired me in 1999. Um, when I was still in college and, um, I learned the startup game from these guys.
It was, you know, it was an eight person startup. It was in a basement somewhere. Um, I learned, these guys taught me how to sell. They taught me how to be a professional. They taught me how to ride the wave and feel a startup happening. They taught me what it tastes like to have a company that's winning and, uh, tastes like a good culture. And so when we re got back together, um, I think this is what experience taught us. So, you know, we're starting, we're in our late [00:02:00] 30s, early 40s, and like, um, you know, like, we sat down and I actually said, wrote down what do we want out of this experience? Right, and so we did some alignment work with the three of us.
We sat in a sushi bar down here in Boston, I think they had a happy hour back then, and so gotten some discount sushi, a couple beers, and, and we wrote on a napkin, or a proverbial napkin, it was like a mac notes thing, I can probably still find it, We just wrote down what we want from this thing. Like, what is this idealized company experience going to be like? and I think that's really important. Um, I think as we get older and through our careers, you have a high opportunity cost. And I think it's really important to get alignment, um, with co founders, alignment with yourself, that you can kind of remind yourself over time, this is your North Star.
And so, and I think because we've known each other for a long time. It gave us shorthanded vocabulary to talk about this stuff. [00:03:00] And so I remember we actually wrote down stuff in like kind of two columns, and half of it was around people, right? Um, so I'll give you some examples. It was just like, um, was like, because we had gone through an experience together, we could have shorthands around the people.
More like this and less like that, and like, you know, everybody says no jerks, no assholes, like that's easy, we could even probably say like, not like that person, right? But like more of these folks and, A more vibe like this. And do you remember that time? And like, so we got a shorthand, but you could make it without shorthand, but we were like banging out that side and the other half of the thing.
So this is about people and the culture and the vibe. And then the other side was about what kind of business, and this was even before the jellyfish concepts. So it's very meta, right? But, um, wrote down stuff like B2B, um, innovation oriented, new markets, not old, technology centric, product centric, um. And I remember a notable one here which was, um, we wrote down, um, we wanted to touch a lot of people. I know that's like a weird [00:04:00] vocabulary, but the point being is that we wanted something that actually could get to scale and have reach. Have big TAM and VC speak. Um, and I think that's an example of like an alignment thing where We kind of needed to say it for each other, like, why are we in this one?
And that is like a shorthand for us to say, like, hey, we wanted to, you know, we're not playing a small ball this one. It's going to be harder. It's going to be further. It's going to have higher risk, probably not going to get there. Um, but we want to swing harder this time and we want to make it bigger. Um, and, and like, and we're willing to do that together and put our hand on a table together for that part of it.
And so that was an example of, I think that does dictate. know, the business we chose. It does dictate what kind of investment you want to choose. It does dictate how hard you're going to grind and the swing you're going to take. And, and I think, um, and I know we did it in shorthand, but I think it's really important.
It doesn't mean you're going to nail it. It doesn't mean that contract will hold perfectly. It doesn't mean you're going to nail every nook and cranny of alignment. But I think if you can, it sets a North Star and table stakes to start talking about that stuff over time.
David Politis: And did you, was [00:05:00] that one meal, that dinner, that sushi dinner, everything came out of that one meal?
Andrew Lau: did.
David Politis: Like,
Andrew Lau: yeah, like I can probably dig up the Matt Notes document because you know it hides, it keeps the history of this stuff. It did, um, but it wasn't like, you're asking me like it was dramatic. I don't think it was dramatic because we have known each other for a long time. And so it was probably already in our heads. It was just the ritual of writing it down together and just
David Politis: hmm, hmm,
Andrew Lau: And be clear, this isn't even about the concept of Jellyfish, which seems a little wonky. this was like very meta around like, what do we want out of this experience together, right?
David Politis: hmm,
Andrew Lau: And so like, I think at the time it was not a big deal.
I don't think it's a big deal because we were aligned on it. But I do think it's a notable step to go through the ritual of writing it down. Because
David Politis: hmm,
Andrew Lau: you're cementing it together on that stuff, you know?
David Politis: and, and how did you choose? Did you know what role everyone was gonna play when you, when you [00:06:00] had that discussion? Or was it we're gonna co found a company together, and we'll figure out roles later?
Andrew Lau: No, I think like, look, roles are hard with founders. I think that's important. You got to sort that stuff out. Um, it's not always perfect and things change over time. I do think that like we do, like we have the benefit of, um, like we all came up through product and engineering. So in some ways we're all pretty multimodal.
We've seen similar experiences and then afterwards we did other things together too. And so. We have common ground from the time we spent together, but then we actually picked up different experiences we kind of scaled out. And so that synthesis of the two kind of kind of put us in various things. And like, look, you know, some of us are more extroverted than others.
Some of us are deeper in tech. Um, some of us are, you know, based in different geographies of the time. And so like those kind of did sort out some practicalities out of that stuff. Um, I think like we're unique in the sense that we all have, uh, [00:07:00] different skills, but we have common ground that we're kind of overlapping Venn diagrams.
So we can tag, we can tag in, tag out for each other, which I think is good, but we're not the same. So like it's balance across that, you know? Oh,
David Politis: of those things with the whole company? Like is that document, those things, has that been shared with the company? Or has that come, kind of come through in the values? Like, how does the company know that?
Andrew Lau: don't, mean, we tell the story. It's not like this, you know, I, I, I literally have not dug up the dock, but I can, that's a good point. Maybe I should dig it up. But, uh, but it's messy. And like, it's, it's not that it's handwriting messy, it's messy in
David Politis: Yeah, yeah.
Andrew Lau: But like, um, it exists and we've talked about it and some of the stuff really, I think carries on.
Like I actually, so, um, of the people things, for example, and we actually do talk about this is we said we have to make it work and what I mean by that. And so this is our shorthand. So when we started the company, at [00:08:00] least two of us had very young kids, right. Um, you know, like I think I had a, you know, a, a. Relatively newborn and a two year old or something like that, right? No, that's just not right. It was probably a two year old, no, like a one year old and a three year old, or a two year old and a four year old. So, like, they were kids, young kids. um, And I think Dave had young kids too, a little bit older, but like still generally young.
And we actually said in the, in the people column part of it, we talk about this in the office all the time, is like, We got to make this work. And what that means is making it work. So it's like, you know, experience is how it's, it's a long journey. It's a marathon, it's not a sprint. And we also live lives as humans here too.
And so we have to make this thing work for us. Um, and that meant that it has to work with our families, our lives, and all those things. And it doesn't mean that we are not going to make a successful company. We have to make those things intersect,
David Politis: Mm.
Andrew Lau: acknowledge that. Like, and, and so this means like, look, You know, earlier in my career, it was, it was all [00:09:00] about like, you're here until 11 at night and eating ramen and then going out to the bars afterwards.
And, like, you know, I'm in my late forties now. I can't, you know, I can't do that. I fall asleep. Uh, but also like, it's, it's a, um, no, but there's a reality, you know, like a two year old, like, you know, your, your partner's going to kill you. Like, it doesn't make sense. It's not fair. Right. And so we said we have to make it work.
And what does that mean? Well, it means that we had to choose a business line that will work for us. For our team and where we actually are a recognition, like we have to be successful. That means putting in time. And so, for example, like, you know, I had to go home at like five or six to go make dinner.
Okay. Um, that doesn't mean that I actually, like, wouldn't be back at
David Politis: Mm. Mm. Mm.
Andrew Lau: back online at eight grinding, um, and, and, and working on stuff. But that means that you had to acknowledge it. You had to. Build a team that didn't need you hovering above them to [00:10:00] make sure they were working and stuff like that.
David Politis: Mm.
Andrew Lau: companies before where like the whole staff is built to make sure that everybody doesn't leave work early and go drinking too early. Right? Like, and, and, and like, you know, that's, that's a certain company that was built in a certain way. And, but I was like, we can't do that because I can't do that.
Right? Like
David Politis: Mm hmm. Mm.
Andrew Lau: and so that means that we had to build a team that we had to have a team that's a bit more personally matured And that might actually cost more. And so this means that actually the business has to be able to sustain
David Politis: Mm.
Andrew Lau: for that part of it. So, so you can't, you know, your business has to support a higher margin or something. I'm just saying it has to work, right? We have to build a successful business and we have to make it work for our life stage. And so that recognition, um, was important for us. Um, cause we didn't want a situation where we're lying to ourselves of what we can't do.
David Politis: Hmm.
Andrew Lau: cause a business to fail on that.
Nor should we sign ourselves for economics that don't make sense for the company either. Right. Cause that'll lead to failure. Right. Um, and so like, yeah, there was a [00:11:00] shorthand. We call it kind of startup for grownups was a little internal shorthand. We said, uh, it's silly. Um, but like, that's what we meant by that part of it.
And so like, yeah, the team has seen inklings of this stuff. I mean, you should survey Gail. I don't know. Like ask
David Politis: Yeah.
Andrew Lau: like, um, does she perceive some of these things here? I think they exist. In the way that we do things, but I think where it manifests most is in the margin decisions, the North Star of how you make decisions of the people you want to hire, the swing you want to make, the investments you want to take on, the, the, like the, the product swings you want to make, like all that stuff. I think that's where it appears most because
David Politis: Hmm.
Andrew Lau: the tone of that North Star. Make sense?
David Politis: It's interesting. Yeah, it makes sense. And when we've talked about this and Gail has shared this with me about the company, like for me, this is one of my challenges of. I have not yet experienced building a company in this mode. My entire career has been exactly the mode that you talked about, grinding all [00:12:00] day and all night and everything.
And, and it's actually one of the things I think about going forward. I, I, I think about how. Is the next company going to be different? Because I didn't have kids when I started BetterCloud, you know?
Andrew Lau: don't want to claim that we aren't grinding. We're freaking grinding,
David Politis: No, no, of course, of course, of course.
Andrew Lau: is different, right? Um, and,
David Politis: And I feel like it's also like in COVID, I feel like also changed a little bit. Like you did this before COVID,
Andrew Lau: yeah,
David Politis: then, but then COVID really, I feel was when a lot of this was introduced kind of to the, to the way of working that people had to get, had, I mean, companies had to adapt at that point in time.
Trust their employees more to, you know, right, right, right.
Andrew Lau: with yourself and your team and your co founders and peers, where you don't need to hover over them and do a thing. I'm not saying that people don't need to deliver. They need to deliver, right? But that there is [00:13:00] capability and trust and self moderation. that can do this without hounding. But some stuff you gotta, you gotta be sitting there cramming together. And so, so I'm not saying it's perfect, right? But I'm just saying, don't lie to yourself. That's my biggest thing too. Like you, you got young kids, don't sign yourself up for something that's going to make you sacrifice the business or sacrifice your family.
That's not fair to either party, right?
David Politis: Yep.
Andrew Lau: that is like, and I'm saying that's the physics you have to recognize.
David Politis: Um, so you started your career. You mentioned all, all of you started your career, product engineering, um, and you're now CEO. You've built this business, very successful business. How have you Evolved into a CEO, you know, um, cause you, you know, it's, it's definitely different to be a engineering leader, even if the team was a 10, 000 people, very different to be an engineering leader than be the CEO of a startup.
Is that like, did you have these skills? Do [00:14:00] you feel innately in you or did you, did they evolve over time? How did you start enjoying, you know, I'm sure you have to do sales. Now you have to do, you know, like fundraising, all this stuff that you didn't have to do. Talk to me about that evolution or that, that, that journey.
Andrew Lau: So, so you're going to see some discomfort in me and maybe I'm wincing or shrinking in my seat here. I think that's some of the imposter syndrome stuff. I, like, I don't know, like, you know, am I, you know, I definitely don't declare success yet. And I definitely am cautious of actually saying we're good at any of these things. But I can talk about the journey, right? Like, um, I can talk about the journey around knowing yourself on this stuff. So I'll say a little bit around how the role has changed, and I will say also about my personal evolution into that part of it. So, um, on the personal side of it, I actually think, look, I'm an Asian guy trained in engineering.
Like, those values should teach you to put your head down, and go code perfectly, and then the world will reward you, right? Like, I don't [00:15:00] think that's actually how the world works these days. Like, I think it's a, uh, And like, you know, counter to my parents generation on that stuff. That's not like, I don't think how the game works these days.
And so, I actually think it was really important when I started working with Dave and Phil in the late nineties, um, where I kind of learned the art of sales engineering. They turned, you know, taught me to clean myself up, put a shirt on, like go to a sales call. Like this is, and, and like, also it's not just how you show up, but how you Listen to a customer.
How do you get the taste of this thing? Like how, how do you listen to a customer and realize, oh, I could solve that and, and solve it to them and watch them delight and value when you deliver to them and you learn that rhythm and taste and you're like, oh, that didn't work that time, or that did work that time.
You're like, oh, okay. So I think there is something about learning the taste of, of not just selling, is selling and product and satisfying them. That, and I use the word taste in the sense that it's like you might sift through those, but you didn't hear it right. So like you didn't get it right. So like it's, it's. Like, there is something around once you have [00:16:00] that taste bud activation, you can seek it again. So, think that for me, that was actually step one of that part of it. Um, and then it's kind of, as I was growing through my career in those things, and kind of moving through different kinds of executive roles and stuff like that, Um, you know, I think I started getting some sense of how I, you know, like, enjoy, like, Some things that didn't fit my, you know, stereotypical view.
Engineer introvert in the corner kind of thing, right? Like, that I actually enjoyed the dialogue and then kind of making things happen with customers, prospects, and those things. I would say actually though, like, as far as the company goes, look, the first few years, I think we're just one team doing a thing.
Like, we're all doing the same thing. We're, we're, we're finding customers, trying to find that, I hate the term, but the product market fit thing. You're just trying to, you know, Find customers and you're a small crew. Everyone's just doing stuff to actually make it happen. Um, and so I actually think we're all just kind of in it together doing that. I mean, yeah, we might do different [00:17:00] things, but it didn't feel that different to me. Um, like it's just, you know, you're startupping, right? Um, and, and yeah, like I, like, you know, I've always been a person because I grew up in engineering management. There's a lot of hiring. So yeah, I'm hiring, but like, that's, you know, again, you're just startupping in this whole Um, I think it started feeling different to me when the company got, you know, the, the, kind of 2021 activation go go time and all that stuff started happening, right?
Like 2020, 2021, that kind of shift where like fundraising pacing started changing, um, all of that stuff. And, and like, yeah, like I, I think, so that was step one in realization that like, yeah, fundraising is a thing and it is, And I, and I started realizing and building partners and getting, getting out there that I actually like, so I don't know if it was innate there or I've adapted to it, but I find enjoyment and like on an average bear, I'm a little more, I'm not, you know, I'm not a big time extrovert, but I can, I [00:18:00] like I could be out there and actually working with folks and I enjoy the energy of doing that.
I get tired like people too, but I enjoy the energy of actually meeting more folks. And I do think, when it comes to startups, like, I think people think fundraising is this transactional thing. It's not. I mean, sure, in 21 it might have been, but in general, like, it, like, it's about building trust. It's about meeting people.
It's about raising odds. You've got to be in the game. You've got to be out there. And so I actually think a lot of folks think they're like, oh, I read a spreadsheet. I mean, I read a presentation. I make a magic deck and I just send it around and all things happen. It's like, no. I don't think it works that way, or maybe people that are better than I am make it works that way.
It's about meeting people over, you know, months, quarters, years, multiple times. You build trust with them. They, you know, they understand what you're doing. They get the, they start to build like, Hey, these guys say they're doing this and they're actually going to go do this thing. I'll back with these guys.
I'll roll with these guys. And then when the transaction time comes, it's easy for them to say yes, because You know, the math is, you know, like [00:19:00] the activator, but it's like they've already built that trust along the way. And so I realized that that's part of the job. You have to be out there. You have to be meeting with customers, partners, prospects, investors, like, and, and, and, you know, like, and, and that is a runtime game. And whether I naturally was built for that, I haven't learned it or realized, like, not terrible about it, and I'm not terrible at it, and I, and I don't hate it, like, I, I derive energy from meeting folks, and so on balance, like, that's part of the role, right? Um, so that was kind of unlock one for me on the journey around realizing, and I think like, look, when you're, you know, person company, once you raise the first bullet of money, like, that's not the job, you're making the product, you're gonna make the thing actually happen. But there is a time here, you know, for us where we're like, you know, we're a hundred people, suddenly the game shifted and it's much more around that. And so about that trust building exercise and telling the story, um, that is part of the job. And so like that's adaptation one. And then adaptation two is like stuff [00:20:00] that I've been learning the last couple of years is how much, um, like my role is shifting, which is starting to talk more about realizing what's going to actually happen in the next two to three years further out. And like, I know, like I used to sit there back in the day and be like, okay, like vision admission, this is cheesy stuff. Like, I don't know, like how does that change things? And I've actually started realizing, look, maybe it's the maturity of the business. Maybe because we've got a great leadership team. But like, to a certain degree, like I got to help them on the quarter, but like a lot of the dyes are already cast and it's in their hands on this stuff. And I can go try to help on a deal, help on a customer, help on a product, but that's delivered now. And I, you know, I can't do it all or it doesn't make sense.
And like, A they're probably better at it than I am. And B like, I can't do it all to the same today. But like my biggest leverage contribution is probably to start thinking about what's going to hit us in the third horizon, you know, a few years out. and start telling that [00:21:00] story folks, which doesn't mean you got to stop what you're doing today. You got to do that and you got to prep for next year and you got to be looking out a few years from now. And I've realized that my, my contribution now in my role is to help paint the story a few years out now to, so we can actually nudge our way in to figure out how we're driving investments to those areas. because that's as important. I'm not saying that's a whole job. I'm just saying that's an addition, um, that I'm learning along the way here too. And for me, like. I got more activated in that in the last couple of years because I'm starting to see the reasons and manifestations why. Because if I don't, if we don't as founders, folks don't realize we need to go over there.
And it's not because they're blinders up or it's not because they're got it wrong. It's just like they don't know. And so that's part of the role as we kind of grow up and get bigger on that stuff. Um, and, and, and like, you know, and then like, look, let's be frank. This last few years. Have been so tumultuous as a company, you know, I'm for the [00:22:00] Dutch company, the, the industry, all of us, right?
Like, and I think then there's a, there's a new, new thing that's actually happening, which as a founder, you gotta like. You've got to jump between the different Some days it's all on tactics, guys, because we've got a crisis here, we've got an assault, and then it's like, oh, no, no, no, guys, you've got to, like, okay, we've got to make sure we pay attention three years from now.
It's like, oh, no, it's tactic time. And, and so you're like, kind of like, you're the instinct of when you've got to go like this or that on that stuff. And, and I think that's been a very complicated part of the last few years because the, the, the macro is so dynamic, you, you can't just stick to one end of that.
David Politis: You know, what's, what's interesting when you talk about all of that and you talk about the evolution, I think that Especially that last part about looking at to the third horizon. That was one of my personal biggest challenges of I was always so operationally like in the weeds of like, like this quarter and all.
And I had an investor, um, Enrique Salem [00:23:00] from, from Bain Ventures. And when I was talking to him, I would talk to him every two weeks. And I started showing up to these meetings, telling him like, Oh, next week, we're going to do this next month. We're doing this. He said, Dave, you're at a point now. I don't really care right now what you're going to do this week or next week.
And you said it the best way it's already done. You you're not really going to impact that. Let your team go on that. What are you doing next quarter? What are we doing next year? What, where's the market going? How do we prepare for that? Who do we have to start hiring net recruiting now for? And it was such a unlock for me of like, wow.
And I realized that I kept coming up against these situations that I hadn't looked far enough ahead to know were coming. And then I would, it would hit me in the face and I was like, Oh my God. So that, when you said that, like that for me resonates so much that, And it's hard because to get to that place where you need to be looking out that far, the only way to get there is by being operationally in the weeds on what's, you [00:24:00] know, so it's just kind of,
Andrew Lau: you see, and you need both, right? Because if
David Politis: right,
Andrew Lau: you don't get the chance to
David Politis: exactly,
Andrew Lau: year.
David Politis: exactly.
Andrew Lau: get your next year right, you don't get the chance to see three years from now.
David Politis: All right.
Andrew Lau: You know, because I have friends, we talk about this, and sometimes if you're like overly indexed on this quarter, might be that you've got your own leadership challenges on this stuff, right? If you've got to actually still be playing that seat, like that's a thing that like, Oh, are we missing something on our team that you've got to make?
Or is it a bad habit of yours that you're in it because you can't build trust? Okay, that dunno. Or there's a third variation that's actually in this tumultuous time you got to watch for. Did something structurally change like you've got as a founder, you've got to re weigh it in. Did something like, and because there have been so macro shifts around this stuff, is it like, is it a process leadership failure that makes you dig in?
Is it your own inclinations that you gotta get yourself out of there? [00:25:00] Or is there like something actually changing that is like, very macro, very dynamic that your current team can't intuit because they don't see it on that thing. So that's a third variation that suddenly has to have you back laser in on right now.
Microsoft And that's what I mean by this. These last few years have been so
David Politis: Yes. Yeah.
Andrew Lau: which one are you playing on? You know?
David Politis: What, um, let's go to the early days for a second. What, how did you, you know, I, I, I told you before we started, I've gotten a bunch of text messages recently from founders, early, early, early stage founders listening to the podcast. And they said, can you add a question to the podcast, which is how did the person find their first five customers?
So I'm going to ask you
Andrew Lau: Yeah.
David Politis: guests that I'm asking the question too. So how, how did you, how did you find? Find your first five customers.
Andrew Lau: I'll actually go to 20, because it's more
David Politis: Okay, okay.
Andrew Lau: no, no. I actually think, um, I think it's really important, um, And I don't know if it's the only way. I'll just say it's our way of this stuff. Okay, so, [00:26:00] I said earlier, we all professionally grew up in the late 90s. And back in that generation, there was a different playbook that startups ran. of companies did stuff in terms of pro services back days that people don't really do so much today. And if you go to late 90s, a lot of companies were built on the back of pro services. And there's two values they got out of it. One, they actually had someone else, it was a financing tact, right? So you got companies built on the back of pro services, so money came in. But it also was a form of product and customer development because you then could say like, okay, let's, we, we figured out they care about this. And so we can actually factor out this thing and this will be our product. Okay. Like, and that was. thing that was actually very powerful back then, like not the financing part of my view.
It's around feeling what customers really needed and wanted out of that part
David Politis: Hmm. Hmm.
Andrew Lau: so we actually, we came into this startup and because we had that experience, we actually could talk about that as a group and use it as a [00:27:00] tactic, right? So we were lucky to get a seed round early on, um, before we actually had products back for the folks at Excel.
That was very, you know, like we're lucky to get that chance to do that. Um, so we weren't looking at. Like that attack from a financing perspective, but we loved that motion from a kind of product discovery perspective, um, and a customer discovery perspective because, you know, we got at this because we said, Hey, leaders have a hard time doing their job because the engineers and business are deeply disconnected. Right? This is a situation where, you know, this is the most strategic part of the company. It's 40 percent of OPEX, but the business doesn't understand it. And that leads to flailing and bad calls. Right? And so our original vision was like, Hey, let's, let's do for engineering what Salesforce did for sales.
And I think that's a, I know it's trite and I know it's like a one liner, but that was like our original framing to ourselves. So we knew the kind of macro problem space we were dealing, but we actually took a default assumption, which is we do not know [00:28:00] what the product needs to be. literally didn't.
We said, Hey, we're a little bit older. We're a little out of touch. We
David Politis: Ha ha!
Andrew Lau: And then the kids probably do it better than we do today. They, they, they probably got new ways to do it. And so to convince ourselves to do the startup, even before we actually had money or really got it, We interviewed 50 something VPEs and CTOs, and that was easy for us in the sense that we had a strong network given our past of that, but also it was a proof point of an undersold market because we could get those interviews quickly, okay? And so we did this, and so along the way, you know, we convinced ourselves this thing we wanted to do because people actually Share the pain that we saw and be like, no, there's no new answer. We have the pain too, it still holds. So great, we want to solve that pain. And so when we got going, we just called those same folks back and we said, Hey, um, can we, um, like work with you on this stuff?
Can we, you know, we will do whatever you want. So this is our pro service angle. We will do your spreadsheets, we'll do your PowerPoints, we'll do whatever custom work you want, as long as we can have access to your [00:29:00] digital systems. Okay, whatever you want. And so that was our pro services framing. We didn't charge them for it.
Um, and, um, so that we can have dialogue. And so our assumption there was by doing this, whatever they ask us to do, they're going to actually want. Right? And we're going to learn what the product needs to be to solve this problem. So, we meet one guy, and they'd be like, Oh, okay, I think I need this thing, or I need this deck, or I need this exercise, I need this analysis, and we do it for him or her. And then we'd take it and bring it to the next guy and be like, Hey, so if we did this, it looks kind of like this. Would you find value in this? And they'd be like, yes, no, and that didn't work in this. And so, we use this as our loop of how we actually built our first kind of 10 alpha partners or product discovery, whatever you want to do it, right?
And for us, it was because of paranoia that we didn't want to build something that no one cared about. and we wanted to work with people so we could actually prove value. And it helped us figure out what size of company, like, what's the pain point? What's the use case? Like, can we build products that actually solve that?
And we always had an [00:30:00] idea of building a, you know, a digital product
David Politis: Mm,
Andrew Lau: that builds in here. So we had some kind of meta vision on this stuff, but we, we didn't know what the things were. So we had to
David Politis: mm, mm. Hm,
Andrew Lau: to, so if you're talking about kind of alpha partnerships, that's our first 10. But then we actually have a real dollar paying customer. Sure. We turned around after time and started asking those folks and like, would you pay for this? And so you learn pretty quickly, like they like, and they like that part of it, but, but, but the same motion happened. So then we started scaling that part of it up and, and like, started talking to people that we didn't know at all, or that weren't Apple partners and try to pitch it and frame it there and, and try to figure it out and buy it there.
And so we started, you know, we hired a couple of BDRs, you know, bought a Zoom info database and started hitting it. And, and we
David Politis: mm,
Andrew Lau: We had a sales advisor that helped us, you know, kind of get that machine going and gave us repetitions to go ahead and talk to more folks and start pitching this. And that gave us the journey to our first kind of 20 customers [00:31:00] on that path.
And, um, so of which probably like, you know, the first five, maybe were people we knew from kind of development from our early kind of
David Politis: mm.
Andrew Lau: the next 15 were just people we found on just raw prospecting.
David Politis: Wow. I love, you know, I think, um, one of the things, I, I, I talked to a founder yesterday, starting out, And they said to me, you know, I'm, I'm doing discovery and I've talked to three customers, you know, perspective customers. They said, you think that's enough? I said, that's not even close to it. You know, like, and, and when you say 50, right, I think it is that kind of volume.
You need to be doing something of that type of five, three, five. Like that's not gonna, not gonna do it. They said, you have a number. I said, I don't really have a number, but like, if you asked me, it would be 30. You know, and, and I think to your point, when you do that, I, I love that. I love that. And I also love the services thing.
I recently I'm on this [00:32:00] kick of like the companies that come out of the services, the product companies that come out of the services, kind of business or origins are so secure. At least the ones I'm involved in are so successful because there's no question of product market fit
Andrew Lau: Yeah.
David Politis: the time the product is built Otherwise you wouldn't have built the product in the in the first place if you weren't doing the services and b So I those two are I actually both of those the 50 customers and someone else had mentioned that to me on an earlier episode But but that services piece I think is I I'm really happy you brought that up Hmm.
Andrew Lau: talking to someone else about this too. And I think, and maybe it's re relevant again, it was relevant in the nineties. Maybe we'd hit it again today. Right. Um, But I think there's one trap that I think people should actually watch for in that model. Okay, so this is why as a founder, you are a product person too.
Anybody's a founder is a product person because you're making the calls, which way you go. can't just [00:33:00] do whatever they say. Okay, so in a pro services, you're selling your time for dollars on this thing to make a thing. Okay, you need to still have a passive vision around where you're trying to go.
Okay, Because they can take you left, they can take you right in places that like you, then they may never be your product. So your job as a product manager there's, you're there to edit and decide whether you want to
David Politis: Hmm.
Andrew Lau: take on that contract, take on that engagement. And if you take on that contract and take on that engagement, whether you actually want to bring that to the platform or not. Because the bad trap of this is you could just keep doing it. And all of a sudden you literally are a services
David Politis: Yeah, right, right, right.
Andrew Lau: anything you do, of which it does not bundle into a product, of which you don't own the IP for this thing, Um, then you've just built a service company, which is not the goal here,
David Politis: Right, right, right.
Andrew Lau: so, so, like, it's a tactic, it's not the game, you know?
David Politis: Very interesting. Now, [00:34:00] now, years later, you have 600 something customers, however many customers you have. Um, how, what is your current ideal customer profile? Hmm.
Andrew Lau: Yeah. It's changed. I mean, like, we've been, you know, like, It's pretty bad. know, we've always been working with software internet technology companies. That is kind of our core bailiwick. And I'll give you a funny story, part of the customer development stuff. So, um, one of our first concepts that I gave you the concept of services on, we learned because we met a VC here.
And then he's like, I love my head of engineering. And I was like, well, it sounds like BS. one does. No VC says that. You know, all VCs, like, hate all their execs. This is not true, right? Ah. And so we found this person and we said, well, what the hell did you do? Right? And he well, I make this chart. I was like, this chart?
He's like, well, you know, like I pull this data every week and I calculate this stuff by hand. And I have [00:35:00] this chart and then I show this chart or where we spend our time. And the board decided to get out of the line of business because I was like, that's dope. That's a good, that's a good chart. Um, and so we take that to the next guy and we're like, would you like this chart?
He's like, yeah, I'd like it if you make it automatically. Great, we'll make it automatically. So like, that set us on a path. Now, we went back though and actually, so we learned from that early company that like, okay, this is what they did. They did it by hand. But along that journey, that company, which I don't think exists anymore, but that company ended up, like the original, we got the Genesis idea from, was not a good customer for us because there were only, at the root of it, like 10 engineers, right?
Um,
David Politis: Hmm.
Andrew Lau: they were, um, They were, um, you know, they knew what everybody was doing and they didn't really, I mean, despite the kernel of the idea from them, that that was not our ideal customer. And so like we learned in that kind of customer exploration phase of the first couple of years, that like we generally do better was the companies get a little bit bigger, right?
As they kind of introduce third layers of management and these things. And so, um, like, so [00:36:00] today we generally are a company that still is very much selling to software companies, internet technology companies. Um, you know, we started like selling to companies that look like us, kind of A, B, round companies, but like, and they're still part of the portfolio, but the, but more and more we're living in the publics and the bigger companies that are that part of it.
David Politis: Hmm. Mm-hmm
Andrew Lau: we're now, um, crossing over to other industries besides software and internet technology. So we're, and, and those companies organize slightly differently. So we're learning about that. Um. Um, but as far as, you know, the, the, who are, is that's, that's the firmographic ICP, right? Um, so I guess you'd call it kind of mid market software and technology is still our concentration, I think, in, in finance speak.
Um, but we're kind of going up market and into other industries. Um, but I also think that who's the person that's our economic buyer. It's the head of engineering, CTO, CPO is often our economic buyer. We jokingly say it's the person that's bickering with the finance [00:37:00] folks for next year's headcount. Um, and, and, but, but like, you know, cause they're the person that actually is responsible for like, what are we, we're spending all this money, what are we doing?
Um, and, and, um, but they're also the ones that actually don't have a lot of legs in understanding how we connect to the finance team and the board to
David Politis: hmm hmm.
Andrew Lau: stuff. So that's our, you know, that is our economic buyer. But the, you know, our users go all the way down to, you know, like the entire team, the
David Politis: Right, right.
Andrew Lau: and product managers and project managers, and all those folks there on that stuff too. But our ICP is really the, the, for now is the kind of head engineering, kind of CTO, kind of product kind of person from a persona perspective as our
David Politis: Hmm
Andrew Lau: But, but we touch, you know, lots of folks in the organization accordingly.
David Politis: hmm. Yeah, it makes complete sense. Um, so you mentioned Excel earlier, um, as, as an early backer. So when you were starting the company, you had had success. Your, the previous company you were all part of was very successful. Um. I'm not gonna say [00:38:00] you could have chosen any investor, but usually, you know, you, you, you, and with that kind of pedigree, you know, how did you go about choosing who you wanted to work with off the bat?
Did you have someone at Excel you knew that you, you know, talk to me about how that started, that,
Andrew Lau: and privilege, right? Like, um, so, so the, the privilege is that you're right. We had some successes in our Larry career that let us make phone calls to people we wanted to talk to, right? So that, that's the privilege part of it. And then recognize that part of it. The luck part of it is that we also walked into, um, some ideas that they're already kind of, you know, around nearby.
And so we
David Politis: mm,
Andrew Lau: it in
David Politis: mm, mm,
Andrew Lau: And so like both of those come into play. Um, you know, to your point around, did we have the chance to pick, I don't know, like we got, like, I think fundraising is some luck and I don't mean luck, like we're not working. It's just like timing and things you walk into. And you have the connections and treat people right in the past. Um, I actually think that like, you know, we think [00:39:00] a lot about, we thought a lot about like, look, we're in the East coast. We'd love to kind of find a brand out West. Um, was important to us, um, because it helped open doors for us, um, and, and new networks.
And I think that, that, that is true and matter to us a lot, um, just cause it expands the sphere of your ability to reach. Right. Um, and the other part too is also like, you know, knowing how, like, my co founder Dave had a relationship with them and just knowing how they are, um, as people and as firms, like in, in different situations is really important to us.
Right.
David Politis: mm,
Andrew Lau: And so that trust, I think, is important. Um, I actually was actually talking to, um, a founder around this, like, Venn Diagrams by MAP for Early Stage Fundraising. And, uh, we talked about this early on, which is, um, um, two circles. Okay. There are people that, that know and trust you and what you did.
That is, they ascribe value to what you've done. It's a bi directional trust, right? They, they, they respect the [00:40:00] company you did before. They see you guys as As good folks and, and, and like, you know, you've done well by them. So like, that's the personal trust part of the network. And it goes, Oh, look at that, both directions.
Right. And then, and then, and then you've got this other sphere, which is people that know your domain very well. Okay.
David Politis: mm,
Andrew Lau: and, and like, and, and so I'm going to say like, let's talk about talking to either of these folks. So if you talk to folks that, that no one respect you, but they don't know the domain, so just in this circle. They, like, they'll take your meeting, they'll hang out with you on this stuff. Um, but it's gonna take you, you know, six months, a year to convince them there's a market there. They're like, I don't know, DevTools? Does anyone care about
David Politis: mm,
Andrew Lau: I don't know, there's no, there's no money there. What is that?
Right? Like, so that's, that's someone that likes you, that respects you, but like somehow doesn't think that that's a big TAM. Okay? So that's, like, what? Then the other guy or gal who's like, hey, um, I know this domain, cold. Okay, [00:41:00] well. Financing is global now. So this person that knows this dental sector cold, well, you haven't started yet.
So you got no metrics. You got no success. They're like, who are you?
David Politis: mm,
Andrew Lau: company in the world and they know like, well, these guys are kicking over here. They're doing great over here. What do you got? You're like nothing. They're like, okay, I can't do a deal with you. You're like, I don't know who you
David Politis: mm.
Andrew Lau: Like, like, And they know the sector better than you do probably. Okay. Now if you can line up that Venn diagram where the two match up, Okay, that's what it clicks. right? Because you don't have to, they, they've got trust in you. They know that you're, you're, you're a person that they can trust and you're in there like that, that that has done it before.
And I don't mean trust like you, like maybe trust cannot, it doesn't have to be like they know you personally. They can be like, they respect the company you came out of or the function you did on that thing. Like there's many forms of trust. But when you can get that magic Venn diagram overlapped and that's when things move quickly, um, and it clicks.
And so I do think it takes, I think it's important. To curate [00:42:00] the way you look at things by those circles, right? And so when we started this, we said like, hey, we're not going to call like a ton of people We're just calling a handful of folks that are kind of like in these orbits of things and and see it works Because you know what we originally started we weren't entirely convinced we wanted to do this on a venture backed basis We were like at first we were like, hey, should we do this on a bootstrap services basis?
Like we don't we didn't know it's like well, let's talk to a couple folks and see if this clicks You Um, in that way, and so we had a very small Venn diagram overlap. We didn't call a ton of folks on that accordingly. Um, anyways, I don't know if that's helpful, but
David Politis: That's very, that's very helpful. That, that Venn diagram is really, I think you're right. You know, I was actually on a panel with some VCs the other day talking about fundraising and one of them was saying that a big challenge for them is meeting because such a big bet in pre seed, seed is on the founders.
That if they don't know the founder, it's literally what you just said. They said, it's really hard. And, and just a [00:43:00] cold email from a founder. Yeah, they may respond or whatever, but when it comes through some introduction, when they know the company, exactly what you said, that already starts, like it just, It just skips many, many steps to then have the conversation.
But I like that other Venn diagram, which is if you don't actually, if they have no thesis on the space or haven't done any work, it can take a long time, I mean, for them to get conviction. Right,
Andrew Lau: literally know two people that just didn't understand the space. And I think one of them even said, Is there really money in DevTools? And I, I literally remember that conversation. I was like, okay,
David Politis: right, right, right. When, when I was pitching, when I was pitching BetterCloud, when we started, we were only about Google apps or Google workspace now, but Google apps and I pitched someone. I mean, this is, I don't know if I ever told this story publicly. I pitched someone at Google Ventures and the person in the meeting actually said to me, Google apps?
You mean like our Android apps? I said, no, like Gmail and Drive. And they said, [00:44:00] does anyone use that? I swear, you know, but it's exactly, it's exactly this point of like, you know, knowing, really understanding that having a thesis about the space is important because how many bets are they really making every year?
Not that many. They have to have conviction, you know, on that. So, um, and so, so that was the first investor was Excel. When you think about going forward, how have you You know, as the company has scaled, have you thought about that differently? Or is it kind of the same Venn diagram and you think about it the same way?
Or, or,
Andrew Lau: I think different stages have different things to add, right? I, I think that like, it is not a static thing. I think every, like, and, and like, it's more than capital. It's, it's the brand, it's the network, it's the advice, it's the people, all these things. Um, and so, and, and the needs and compositions change over time. Um, so, and, and, and also as you kind of get larger, you also need to think about, The size of their pockets and will they play in future rounds and [00:45:00] all of that stuff too. So like it's, um, again, like there's no one answer to this stuff and the whole macro is changing so fast. Um, like it, but, but I do think it's not a one size fits all answer at all stages.
I think different things and, and geez, it's like different things work for different people. It depends on your ambition. Depends on what you're trying to play for. Depends on what kind of value you're seeking, what you have strengths in already, what you're,
David Politis: hmm,
Andrew Lau: you already like. It is, it is a. Per company, per founder, per, you know, round, per market, per state
David Politis: hmm,
Andrew Lau: and evolution macro discussion. I don't think there's a one answer on this thing. Like, um, and, and I wish there was an answer. But I actually, actually, I'll say something. It's actually better for everybody that there's one, not one answer. Because I actually think this dynamicity breeds opportunity for all parties involved. It allows different companies to click with different investors, because different investors have different goals, right, at different sizes based on their fund
David Politis: hmm, hmm,
Andrew Lau: is,
David Politis: [00:46:00] hmm,
Andrew Lau: return model is, actually is, like they are seeking different things.
Not all investors are the same, not just by humans, But what they're trying to economically do, where they think they're going to bring value, where they think they're going to add
David Politis: hmm,
Andrew Lau: stuff. And so, and every founder and situation is different too. And so that actually allows, cause geez, if both were static, that means you're only going to like fund 10 companies with 10 investors
David Politis: right.
Andrew Lau: that's it. Right? Um, but we all know there's many ways to make money and many ways to find successful partnerships here on this stuff. Um, so I think it is, um, I'm not trying to duck the answer. I think there's no
David Politis: No, no, no. That's a good, no, that's a good, that's good. Um, so let me ask you, what is the biggest challenge you've ever faced at Jellyfish? And. How did you overcome that challenge if you did?
Andrew Lau: Oh man, this is throwing me on a hard question. Um, I don't, I'm pausing and I actually think like I'm skirting the answer here [00:47:00] maybe, but I don't, I think they're all hard. What I mean by that is like, or they're all difficult because like, I just think there's all kinds of wild cards coming at you all the time as a startup. And, and every time you touch it for the first time, it's hard.
It's hard. Um, and, um, and maybe that's my naivety or maybe that's my, my, like, you know, learning new things as we go along, but I think the first time as a company you tackle things, it is hard. Um, and I think it is, um,
David Politis: Do you think it gets easier as you get bigger? Mm
Andrew Lau: different challenges and and maybe like when you get these like grizzled seasoned CEOs that do it better than I do Maybe they got it easy because they've seen it. They've seen all the diversity of things But I don't know. I actually think it's it's because I'm not trying to say any of them are harder or not It's just like they're all freaking hard at the moment and then you're through it and then you're on to the next and that's also hard Too because it's new and you didn't do it before and I actually think it's not just about me.
It's for the company You [00:48:00] think actually once the organization as an organism has done a thing once before, it gets easier for the next time it has a habit. It has a success or failure. Be like more like this last time or less like that last time, right? You can, you can build on that and you can, you have the battle scars as a company and as like, Oh, that didn't work or that did work or there's the positive reinforcement on that.
And so it gets easier the next time. The first time you do something as an organization, It's really hard. Um, and so I think everything new is always hard. And here's the thing about getting bigger. It just has new problems. It's not like it gets easier because shoot. If anything was easy, we'd all already have it done.
And if the answer was, when you get bigger, it gets easier, well then, shoot, all you have to do is get to a B round, then everything's easy, right? We're all gonna crush that. It's not. You know this. It's messy, right? It is hard. There are all new challenges that don't exist, right? I'll tell you, for right now, for example, like, know, I said, we talked earlier about needing to work on things that [00:49:00] are gonna play out three years from now, things that are gonna play out now. Suddenly we have to walk and chew gum and rub your stomach at the same time, or pat your head. Like you, you, you, you can't just do one answer at once. You need to, and you also have to attack multiple segments at once and multiple markets at once, different personas and uses at once. You can't fail at anything.
You got to do all of them. Right? So now the new challenge, how do we do all of those things at once? Um, because you know, when you're earlier, you learn to do, everyone go here and everyone go there and go crush it here and there. Well, you got to do it all now.
David Politis: hmm. Mm hmm.
Andrew Lau: like, and so that's, you know, challenges we've been able to grow through too.
And that's the example of today, you know.
David Politis: Mm hmm.
Andrew Lau: and I'm sure there's another one that I have no clue about tomorrow that I'm going to get walloped on. Um, and so, like, I, I have a hard time picking one because I think
David Politis: Yeah,
Andrew Lau: along the way.
David Politis: it's interesting I've been so I've been doing a lot of talks for early stage founders and one of the things that I tell people I found This great quote it essentially says the waves won't stop coming But you can learn how to surf. [00:50:00] And I think that that is when you just said that, like, that's what goes through my mind because it's exactly that thing, which is the waves don't stop when you're small, large, third company.
It doesn't actually, but when you face that situation, like you said, you can When you do deal with that and you build that muscle memory as a founder or actually more so as a company The next time that particular thing you've learned how to surf that wave and you can get but then you get walloped in your words Exactly by the next massive wave and you're like, oh, okay Now I got to figure out how to actually surf that wave.
So I I I, I think that statement is something that every, I, the reason I talk about is because I think every founder needs to hear that because there are many people, I've had people tell me like they're, I met them when they're at zero of ARR, now they're 15 of ARR and they literally, I walk in their office like, Dave, does it ever get easier?
I'm like, no, it doesn't get, it doesn't get easier. It's just, this is just a, it's a new set of [00:51:00] challenges, but it doesn't really, it doesn't get easier. Actually, you could argue the stakes get higher and higher,
Andrew Lau: saying,
David Politis: you know?
Andrew Lau: like, the pressure's on harder because the, the, the challenges have bigger issues coming to play that affect more people. Yeah.
David Politis: Right, right, exactly. Yeah.
Andrew Lau: for the younger founders there, don't get suckered into the falsitude that the folks that have been through more are just going to be always better than you at it.
Cause I have watched some of these kind of really seasoned folks trying to get back to scratch when they can't find that first product market fit or get those things too, it's hard for them too. It's all hard, man. just like, so like it's, it's, um, so I'm just saying don't fall in the trap that like there are magic things that happen. Um, it's just like, it's about, you seen, has your organization, your organism seen that experience in the time you are now and [00:52:00] before? Um, and, and can you crack it? And that is hard. Every one of them.
David Politis: Right. Last question I have for you on Jellyfish and then we'll transition to you personally. On Jellyfish, where is the company three years from today? Yeah.
Andrew Lau: think it's um, I, I don't know if I can answer that because I think I could challenge any of us here. What does the economy and the tech scene look like? Uh, you know, three years from today, and I think we're all full of stuff and we're making things up.
I don't think we know. It is so hard to predict today what tomorrow brings on that stuff. And I think that's almost, that is what the last few years have taught us. Like, we don't know, right? Um, but I can say, like, and um, or actually, one other thing, I actually think it's also a really exciting, tumultuous time also in our technology space, too.
Like, all the AI stuff is happening. It's happening everywhere and it's gonna change stuff, but yet, it goes fast and slow. Like, I think sometimes, [00:53:00] like, people, everyone's like, Oh, the future's here, but then you're like, talking to folks at bigger companies, they're like, I don't even know, like, I haven't used an AI before.
And you're like, okay. Um, but then you've got folks in the Valley that are like living and breathing this thing and there's this juxtaposition. And so, I, but I think we all intuitively know big things are gonna change here. Um, and so, I don't think we all know exactly how they're gonna land in that part of it.
Um But I do think that's gonna, like, I think change behooves startups, right? Like, we have the ability to adapt to this environment. Um, and that means that I am confident that we're gonna adapt. I am confident the world's gonna be different than it is today. Um, I am bullish in our ability to actually go tackle that.
So yeah, we'll be succeeding through that, but it's gonna require adaptation, right? I can promise you that's what it looks like in the next three years that we are all adapting. It's a time of vigorous change, right? In the way
David Politis: Hmm. Hmm.
Andrew Lau: and how we solve things. The pacing is gonna be unclear.
It's gonna be fits and starts. [00:54:00] But I am confident we're going to be adapting to that and growing with that. And I'm excited to get the chance because like, look, if you're an old line company, then yeah, that's a bad wave coming at you because you're trying to change what, you know, 100, 000 people do. We don't have that challenge. Right? Um, and so, we get to be here and see it happen and adapt ourselves on that stuff. In some ways, it's good that we're, you know, not a megacompany right now. Like, I'd actually be more worried if you're a megacompany on that part because you can't adapt. Like, I still view us as early in the baseball game.
Like, we're inning three in this game here. Um, and that means that there's gonna be, like, lots of chances to swing and adapt on that part of it. So, I don't know. I would say my best answer for you is gonna be different.
David Politis: Hmm.
Andrew Lau: going to be in there slugging for it and hopefully winning on it.
David Politis: What, um, let's go to you personally. So tell me a little bit about your background. Where are you from originally?
Andrew Lau: Oh, gee. Um, I am born and raised in Northern California. I'm an Oakland guy. [00:55:00] I'm a little sad about the Oakland A's leaving. I was a baseball guy here. Um, I live in Boston. Actually we, our office here in Boston, um, I live in Cambridge, which is like the Berkeley of the area here for my East Bay analogy on this stuff. my background is, uh, I was trained engineer, right? I came out to Boston for school. Um, but further back from that, my parents are from Hong Kong. My, uh, my dad was a civil engineer and my mom was a programmer before programmers. Um, so like my dad has been entrepreneur, um, so I've got kind of some entrepreneurial bugs from him. And my mom was a coder before coder. She was a math major who learned on punch cards and it, and, uh, and, and I learned. I learned my early programming stuff from her. Um, so she's my technical inspiration on that part of it. And how I know this, like, they don't let me code that much these days. But I use a, uh, when I code, I use this thing called VI.
So like, in engineer speak, there's two code editors, you know, like text editors. There's Emacs and VI. I'm a VI guy. um, for those nerds out there, [00:56:00] I, um, you know, like that's my side of the house and I'm a, um, I am a, like the key combos I use, I've, someone watched me once, like, what are you doing? That's like a weird key combo.
Like no one does that. um, I learned that, actually, I learned that from my mom because she learned back before there were screens, that there were these things called line editors where they're like, you touch a keyboard and a printout would happen one line at a time on a printer. And so there was an editor back then, I think that was called Ed, and VI inherited all the commands from there, and so I learned the commands from her from that stuff.
So I've got some, like, old school lineage in the way that I do things.
David Politis: Wow. And so were they, so were they, are they from Hong Kong and they moved to Northern California
Andrew Lau: They came to the US for college, um, and so, like, you know,
David Politis: together, together, or they met, uh,
Andrew Lau: they were, went to the same high school, but they came separately here. And, um, but yeah, they ended up in the Bay. Um, [00:57:00] they went, both went to UC Berkeley and, um, there was a fair chance I was going to end up going to UC Berkeley, but like life happened, um, and I ended up at East.
David Politis: what kind of, uh, what kind of businesses did your dad, what kind of entrepreneurial,
Andrew Lau: he's a civil engineer, so he had a civil engineering business. Um, and, and so he's done that, uh, in various reps. So not, not the software side of things. Um,
David Politis: you got it. You got it.
Andrew Lau: earnest and, and, and, uh, you know, making sure buildings have the right foundations to get
David Politis: So do you think, do you think that growing up, did you know you wanted to actually Start something at some point, like didn't, did you have that dream or it was engineering, you know, and that was the focus. And this kind of came later in, in life.
Andrew Lau: I wish I were that conscious about it. I can, I can, I can look at myself post facto. I would say, you know, I, was definitely not engineered. And I think about this a lot not to critique myself and think about my kids and this stuff as they're coming up. Like I, looking back, I definitely did entrepreneurial things like as much as high [00:58:00] schools did.
Like I had. I had all kinds of weird hustles. Like I had, you know, we had a mountain biking club that we sold doughnuts and we like, uh, we ran like swap meets around the Bay area that we would actually collect, you know, run a marketplace where we charge people like 50 bucks to sell and three bucks at the door to come in.
And like, you know, we, we do hustles like that. Like I had, um, I ran a school newspaper, um, and learned kind of some selling from that stuff. I used to be, uh, I used to sell like I used to, an early memory for me was I used to, uh, I did BDR work for a tennis club And I would like, they'd give us these like printouts of that green and white paper that would show leads It was like Glenn Glerg or Glenn Ross Did you get the good leads?
And I would, um, I would rip through this list and I would look for Chinese names And then I would call those things and I would just start speaking Chinese And that gave me a little bit of edge because they'd stay on the call for like that much longer And I think we got paid like 20 bucks for everyone that we came in for like a, for a tennis club week or something, just stuff [00:59:00] like that.
So like I had that in my bones, um, looking back, like weird shit like that. Um, and then, um, and then in college I found a thing which is, I realized, I learned that I, freshman summer I did an internship at IBM kind of big. And then I sought a internship at Microsoft, which was smaller then, but it was still big. Um, and then, and then, and then the next summer after that, I was like, I really kind of, I like the smaller thing. I actually, um, the summer of 99, I did a internship at, at the time, public company, but it was only a 300 person company called Ink2Me, which eventually became Yahoo Search. Um, and I was like, wow, these are my people, this is fun, right?
Um know, like, it was just like, the code was cool, and I feel like I showed up and there was like a cot underneath the desk. And I was like, what is this? Right? And there was like, uh, And they'd have like Friday parties where like, it was just
David Politis: [01:00:00] Hmm.
Andrew Lau: um, and so it turns out post facto that, um, Gorley, he also was the first to send Jared, like, an ink to me. So while I don't think we actually met during that summer, he already kind of was able to get to me through those circles. Um, so I, I say like, like I was not cautious of, deeply conscious of the time, but I sought things that were smaller because I liked the vibe of it. I think I liked exposure. I liked exposure to things that I didn't know. And I think in smaller places I got more exposure to stuff I didn't know. Um, and again, this is all like me psychoanalyzing retroactively looking at this. And so I, when I joined with David Phillip, this eight person company, I was still in school. I was, it was a, it was a halftime job. I was still in, I was going to do my five year master's, but by spring I was like, this stuff is so much more fun than school is. And so I just, I just tied off my undergrad and then I went with those guys full time and I bailed on my grad degree. [01:01:00] Um, cause I was like, I'm just learning a ton, right? So like, I think I've been, I'm a guy who has always been seeking. Things that I have fun and a learning on right and I do more of that.
It's like pretty simple algo on that
David Politis: Wow. Do you, do you expose your kids to jellyfish?
Andrew Lau: Yeah, I mean, I mean they've been to the office they don't understand what we I mean It's really hard to explain what we do
David Politis: Yeah. Yeah.
Andrew Lau: commerce search and I think I was easier you go to Tower Records like I'll be search something like this So we do they're like, ah, yes, this is very like to my kids like so you make an app You But it helps people that, like, have people that build apps.
This is all very circular. so they're like, okay, I don't get it. But they come to the office and they see these things. Um, like, I think it's a, um, I don't know. Like, I definitely expose them to it, but I don't think they process it. Like, they don't have to do this. Like,
David Politis: Right. Right. [01:02:00] What,
Andrew Lau: that's what I think, I hope, like, kind of the Western ideal kind of gives them the chance to do. Like, they should do what they want to do. not what I prescribed to them on that. Um, but like, it's a, uh, but yeah, like we talk about it. It's just, it's just like a little woosh right now.
David Politis: uh, what, what drives you, what motive, like deep down at your core, what, what is it that, like we've talked about, this is a hard job. There's a terrible job, really,
Andrew Lau: oh,
David Politis: Um, what is it that, that, that drives you? That motivates you.
Andrew Lau: yeah. Like it's not, you know, like is it, is it fun on a given day? I don't know if it's fun on a given day. There are some hard days. Uh, I, I like the journey, man. I think I like the juice, right? Tactically, I probably like the juice. You can judge me for that. Like as much as I hate the stress, I probably love the stress.
It's like, it's. It's health circular right on that. But I do think like, I don't know, like what are we in it for? This actually goes back to my, when I started this conversation with you, like what are we in it for? We wrote it down and I think part of like, [01:03:00] I think my co founders and I share experience. We, I think we want to make a dent in the world.
I know that's cheesy and simple. Um, but it's that, I'll give you one other cheesy story. Um, I joined this company got sold for over a billion bucks and like, and I joined in college, come on, lucky as can be. Like, come on, right? Like I got to come in as a, as an engineer and got to leave as an executive, got to open my eyes to this entrepreneurial world and, and got access, you know, built some career there and got to make some money too.
Come on. people ask me all the time that, I mean, that is lucky. They're like, what are you most proud of that whole experience? And it's not those things. Like the part that I'm most proud of is I got a chance to meet these folks. then I got to like meet Dave and Phil. I got to be on that journey with these guys, though, that crew that we were part of, there's probably 20 companies, several of [01:04:00] which are public that came out of that crew and the diaspora and the decades since, know, I've got folks I work with that are big deal investment partners at West Coast firms.
I've got people that we work with that are investors in us. I've got folks that we got to work with and hire and interview that are now running big deal, like tens of billion dollar companies. Like that's what I'm freaking proud of. It's that like, that maybe like our presence there doing that caused a little bit of nudge in a collective culture and the right vibe some success and hubris that got everyone to get there. Come on, that's freaking awesome.
David Politis: Hmm.
Andrew Lau: am I in it for? I'm in it that I hope this crew, a decade from now, is off doing crazy effing shit that is bigger and better than I can think of, that's
David Politis: Hmm.
Andrew Lau: that I can't even imagine today. And in order to do that, we do have to set the right tone, the right [01:05:00] culture, um, and like, get the right folks in the door and train them up.
But also, we gotta make this play successful. We gotta make this place hum because that's where they're gonna learn. They're gonna get some hubris from doing this. They're gonna learn the right lessons here on this stuff. They're gonna want to do it again. And the world's gonna give them the
David Politis: Hmm.
Andrew Lau: because of that.
So they can take that at bat
David Politis: Hmm. Hmm.
Andrew Lau: Um, that's what I swing for. Um, and so, and all the while that is, you know, that it will hopefully bring folks money too and all this stuff along the way. Cause it's part and parcel with that. But that's what I'm playing for.
David Politis: I love it. Um, what is one piece of advice knowing everything, you know, today, what is one piece of advice you would give yourself back then when you were an intern, um, and starting, you know, if you knew everything you knew today, what would that piece of advice be?
Andrew Lau: Just follow folks and gigs that you're learning and have fun with. It's like dead freaking simple. is like, just [01:06:00] learn from folks, follow them. If you like working with them, keep working with them. And if you're finding, if you're getting challenged and learning new things, then stick with it. If they're jerks, they treat you badly.
If you're not like, you know, like you're, you're doing stuff that you're not excited about, don't do it. Like, it's dead simple. And that's why I'm cheesy. Like, I think the world works itself out around that.
David Politis: what, um, if people want to connect with you, what's the best way? What's the best way to check out jellyfish?
Andrew Lau: Yeah, so jellyfish. co is where we're at. You can find me on LinkedIn, AMLAU. You can find me on the X, AMLAU. Uh, I think these are easy. Like, I think LinkedIn's probably the easiest to find me
David Politis: Awesome.
Andrew Lau: come on through the front door, that's all fine too.
David Politis: Awesome. Awesome. Andrew, thank you for doing this with me. I, I, I learned stuff here and you, you put things in like a really. Some really concise ways I think people will, will, [01:07:00] will take away from this. So thank you very much for doing this. I'm very happy Gail put us in touch and, um, thank you.
Andrew Lau: No, thank you, man. This is a lot of fun. And a lot of note trade you and I have together on this. Thanks.
David Politis: Awesome. Well, for everyone listening, hope you enjoyed, please share this, like, subscribe, and we'll see you for the next episode of Not Another CEO Podcast.
