How can predictable schedules, clear expectations, and a learning mindset boost company performance, strategic success, and leadership effectiveness? In this week’s episode, we dive in with the leading pioneer of unified interaction management, Dan Michaeli, Co-Founder and CEO of Glia, and explore his 12-year journey.
Michaeli emphasizes the importance of predictable schedules and clear expectations in driving company performance and executing strategic objectives. The discussion also covers his growth as a CEO, his approach to hiring and building an executive team, and lessons learned in sales and disrupting an industry. He shares personal insights on maintaining a learning mindset, staying sane amidst challenges, and the importance of continual adaptation in business.
Takeaways:
Fostering a Learning Mindset: Embrace a mindset that prioritizes identifying and filling knowledge gaps through diverse resources. Proficiency and situational awareness in various domains can significantly enhance leadership effectiveness.
Leverage Immediate Application for Learning: Utilize real-time opportunities to apply newly acquired knowledge. This experiential approach reinforces learning and builds proficiency.
Importance of Executive Search and Hiring Power: Consistently dedicate time and effort to personally source and recruit top talent. Engaging directly with candidates as a CEO can significantly boost response rates and attract high-caliber individuals.
Adapting and Rebranding for Growth: Be prepared for rebranding as part of your company's evolution. Rebranding, coupled with a strategic refocus and fundraising, can catalyze significant growth and redefine market positioning..
Communicating and Managing Change: Use established business rhythms to introduce and manage changes. Connecting change to regular and predictable events helps in gaining team buy-in and maintaining organizational agility and clarity.
Quote of the Show:
“The first step is really understanding what the gaps in your knowledge are, and then it's really driving to plug those gaps as effectively as possible.” - Dan Michaeli
Links:
Website: https://www.glia.com/
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Spotify:
Apple Podcasts:
Amazon Music: https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/7c6328f0-9b42-41db-8fe2-d263b4fbb261
Transistor: https://podcast.notanotherceo.com/
Episode Transcript
David: Today's guest is a disruptor. He spent the last 12 plus years disrupting an industry that desperately needed it. He's an amazing operator. In my opinion, he's built his company the right way from day one. His company is the leader in unified interaction management. They've redefined how companies interact with their customers across their call centers, websites, and AI.
Please welcome co founder and CEO at Glia, Dan Micheli. Hey, Dan.
Dan: Hey Dave, how are you? Good to
be here.
David: Good. It's great to have you here. Let's [00:01:00] jump right into it. First question. What is the one thing you've done at Glia, big or small, that's had the biggest impact that you'll absolutely do again if you're CEO of another company in the future?
Dan: I would say that is ROB, so Rhythm of Business. And so the idea here is to create the most predictable year possible from the outset. I think about it like a school calendar, right? So there are a few parts to that, really two key parts to that. One is the major events for the year. And the minor events for the year, right?
So the major events, think about it as any fundraising meetings or important meetings with investors, board meetings, conferences, customer conferences, quarterly business reviews, and then there's minor events that sort of sit in between those major tentpoles for the year. So think about the standups that you run, the executive meetings that are happening on a weekly or bi weekly, monthly basis, functional meetings across You know, go to market or product and so forth and then cross [00:02:00] functional meetings that you create, uh, between different teams.
So I, I think that once you have that rhythm of the business, trying to really establish it from the beginning so that everybody understands what's coming throughout the year, eliminate some of the ambiguity that we all live with. Right. And then decide carefully on what are the expectations for each one of those different major or minor events, right?
So what's the content we have to have for those events? What's the prep we have to do? What kind of meeting is it? Is it a decision making meeting? Is it a brainstorming meeting? Those sorts of things. And then being very, very determined as the CEO to keep and enforce whatever rules you set for those events.
So that you are the pacemaker for what should be happening at those events. I see this as bringing a few different benefits. One is clarity, so reducing the ambiguity, as I mentioned, the second is mobilizing the team. So making sure that you can empower the leaders, uh, you know, send the right messages throughout the [00:03:00] organization.
Uh, that leads me to the third one, which is alignment. So you want to make sure that strategy and execution are aligned. And then finally it's, it's execution. So when you look at. You know the the rhythm of the business it creates important forcing functions throughout the year, right? So if you have a really important meeting that everybody is aware of that is happening in October or that is happening after the board meeting or whatever whatever it is You can create a, um, a function to drive urgency throughout the business.
And it's really, really powerful to create that cadence, um, and, and, and ramp up the pace in that way for the organization, because we have to be delivering with urgency at this, uh, uh, uh, in technology, right? So.
David: I like, there's so much in there that I like. I mean, first of all, The forcing function. I, I think that is underappreciated actually how powerful there is when you have that forcing function. Like you said, [00:04:00] a board meeting, a big customer meeting, something like that. It, it's actually amazing The power that that can have when people know they're working towards something not just a random date.
They're working towards. I love that Um, I have a very specific question there. How How often can you have that type of forcing function? I that makes sense But it's like can you do that every week and say like this friday? We have a a big meeting gotta you know, hustle like how how often can you
do that?
Dan: Yeah, it's a, you know, it's a really good point. You have to be careful not to overuse it necessarily. Right. Uh, but you know, we were all told, uh, when we're working in disruptive technology to move fast, right. To move with urgency, to drive forward results. And sometimes that isn't necessarily enough to bring the team together around a common goal or a common timeframe.
So I would agree. You have to not be over judicious with it. You can not necessarily do it every single time. [00:05:00] Uh, but I think like some two or three major forcing functions a year, along with some minor, uh, deadlining that can be tied to an event is very effective.
David: When, when, when you talk about the rhythm of the business, you talk about setting these major minor events throughout the year, how much does that change throughout the year? Or are you, you know, do you miss these meetings? Like, do, do you ever skip a meeting or cancel it? Or, or are you, is this pretty strict?
Dan: You know, things, there's always things that happen throughout the course of running a business that may preclude you from having one of these meetings take place. So you have to be reasonably flexible, but ideally you really are not making too many changes to the rhythm of the business that you've established.
And I think as you mature, you're able to, uh, establish that, that, that cadence and those meetings, uh, more and more into the future, right? Maybe at the beginning, you can't quite do it for the whole [00:06:00] year. You can only do it for maybe one or two quarters, maybe do it on a quarterly basis or biannual basis.
You know, it changes. I think the other really thing, the other really interesting thing is that the events themselves evolve over time. So I mentioned when you want to develop the right expectations, the content, the prep, the type of meetings that you're having, You know, you can determine that, Hey, maybe during the ELT meeting that we have every week from now on, we want to do it with a memo beforehand, right?
We want to have a memo and you evolve it. You can evolve it at the beginning of the year when you established a new ROB for that year, or you can do it midway if you find that that's going to drive a particular objective. So I think it's. It's important to treat them as sacredly as possible and not manipulate the calendar too much, but also to have the right level of flexibility to assess if you're getting the most out of the meetings and also if, you know, they need to be rescheduled for some time.
Inevitability that you can do that.
[00:07:00] who owns the rhythm of the business? Is it you as CEO or is it somebody else in the business who owns that?
Dan: I think it has to be owned by the CEO and enabled by other teams. Uh, that I think it also depends on scale, right? At the beginning, you may not have an office of the CEO to help you, uh, really create a rock solid ROB, uh, that's, uh, very predictable. So you may have to do that on your own. Uh, and dedicate the time to it and prepare for those meetings yourself.
As you grow, you know, you have, uh, an admin staff that can help you. The, I find that oftentimes also the people team is, is well equipped, well positioned, has good visibility of what's going on amongst the teams to facilitate some of that ROB work stream. But it, you know, I think it changes over time.
Ultimately, it should roll up to you. Ultimately, you should have the, the full sign off on what the ROV looks like and be very intimately aware of it because it could be an extremely [00:08:00] powerful, um, mechanism to drive results.
David: Do you, do you have, as you talked about the different meetings, are there different voices heard in those meetings? Is it always your voice and you're the one kind of leading that stuff or do you have different voices heard in those meetings?
Dan: It's definitely not, uh, intended to be, uh, a soapbox that I stand on and speak for for an hour, half an hour. It's, it's really meant to be, as much as possible, I want the meetings to be, uh, collaborative and everybody has a, a role to play in the meeting, uh, to either, you know, kind of thinking about it from a RACI standpoint.
Is somebody responsible? Are they accountable? Are they consulted? Are the influencers in this meeting? And sort of thinking about who you bring together. But ideally, you know, you're either making decisions in a meeting or you're brainstorming and solving problems together that can then be input into a decision.
Um, you know, trying to avoid as much as possible reading the [00:09:00] news, right? You don't necessarily always just want to come in with here, here are my updates. Uh, if I try, when we have our ELT meetings to make them as cross functional as possible, we are bringing. Topics that we as a team can address together in uniquely in this particular forum, right?
And so, uh, I think it's really not meant to be, um, you know, megaphone for me. It's meant to be more of an opportunity for either cross functional alignment and collaboration, or, uh, you know, uh, team working sessions. Or, you know, of course, a board meeting, which is its own
David: Yeah.
one of the interesting, interesting things that I've found over the years is that I would change the rhythm of the business probably not even quarterly more like monthly and and it became hard for people to Anchor to anything. It's like, oh, we're having all hands meetings every week and then it was oh, no, we're having them every month Nope, every two weeks every two months and it was and I think that one of the benefits when you talk about the whole year Actually, I don't think we ever did the full [00:10:00] year Is if you can get to that point people There's some certainty to know what's coming, when it's coming, when they're going to get the information.
And they're not waiting to find out all of a sudden you just put an all hands on the calendar and people start freaking out. People know these are the things that are coming. I, I, I, I really, um, I like that. Has the team, does the team ever actually communicate that back to you? Like, people on the team, do they say that or, or do you feel that?
Dan: Oh, you know, they, they, uh, the team pushes you to do it for once you start doing it, I think the team pushes you to do it further and further out into the future, right? Because people have got other commitments outside of work that they want to be able to plan and they want to be at, you know, if you're doing the right things and these meetings are productive, they want to be a part of them, right?
So they want to attend, they want to be there, they want to contribute. And so in order to make sure that you can maximize attendance, right? You know, people say, Hey, you know, do we know when, uh, you know, the [00:11:00] kickoff for the year is happening? And it's, this is like in the middle of the summer. It's like, yeah, well, you know, the ROB is going to be released shortly.
You'll have the full visibility into all the different events. And again, I, I don't, I don't, um, I don't believe it's possible to necessarily do it when you start a business to do this, So far out into the future, because it's, it's, it's hard. You have to sort of have a couple of reps at it before you can determine what works for you.
Right? What works with your fiscal year, what works with the different teams you have as you grow and scale, maybe you've got to deprecate some meetings. Maybe you have to spin new ones up. So it's. It's something that you should constantly be iterating on and keeping an eye on. But I agree. It's, it's making sure that you can be as consistent as possible and then progressively planning further and further out, uh, over the year, become something that the team, yes, embraces and appreciates.
David: I love it. Um, one of the things that I've noticed in, in, I don't know how many years, I think we've known each other for probably 10 years. Um, one of the things that I've seen is you [00:12:00] have evolved a lot as a CEO. And I feel like at a pace that, at least for me, I don't really see very often, including in my own experience of myself and other people.
How, how Do you do that? Um, do you do that deliberately? Has that just come naturally to you as time has gone on? Do you have a mentor, a coach? Like how, how, how have you evolved and keep upleveling yourself? I mean, how big now? Um, glia is how many people now? 400
or
some, yeah. So I think when we met, it was like two of you.
I pretty sure. Um, you know, and so how, how have you done that?
Dan: I think I attribute it mainly to a learning mindset, you know, um, and part of that is circumstantial and part of that is. Uh, I think just innate in, in what I value as a person and what I've been brought up with in my family. Right. I think it's, it's a learning mindset. What, so the, the circumstantial aspect of it is I don't, I didn't really know much [00:13:00] about anything when we started the company, so I was forced to, uh, to adopt these or to supercharge this learning mindset in order to cover the ground I needed to be effective.
Uh, but I think I really do take this, that idea of a learning mindset very, very seriously. And what I mean by that is, you know, the first step is really understanding what the gaps in your knowledge are. And then it's really driving to plug those gaps as effectively as possible. So, what are the right resources?
It's challenging to even know what are the right resources you need, right? So do you need books? Do you need experience and putting yourself in different situations to practice in the field different things, right? Do you need advisors to come in and help you, right? Do you need to have discussions with people who have been there done that, right?
and then the next step, once you determine, so it's really understanding kind of what is the universe of resources that would benefit this gap in knowledge that I have, that would help me fill this gap in knowledge, and then it's voraciously [00:14:00] engaging with all those resources until you develop one situational awareness and then proficiency.
If you can really stand on your own two feet and feel that you can, you know, have an intelligent conversation about the topic that you're looking to learn. And then moving towards proficiency where you can consider yourself an expert at some level for that, right? And then it's not being afraid to test yourself.
So, uh, throwing yourself in the deep end, once you feel you have that situational awareness and that proficiency, you gotta put, you gotta put it to the test. You have to be out there and test it in front of real live situations. Uh, and see if that learning holds up. And if it doesn't, then you continue to, you know, you continue to acquire that knowledge.
So, um, for me, that ranges topics, ranges the gamut. So, you know, topics can be functional, which is leadership, product, sales, those sorts of things. Domain based, which is what is, you know, who are the companies in my space? What's going on in my space? And then it's industry, which I think really relates to the customer understanding.
their unique circumstances. So I try to [00:15:00] bucket, you know, the general areas of learning, and then try and identify the gaps, identify the resources, and just go really, really hard at acquiring as much knowledge as I can.
David: Do you, do you feel like you have less and less weak spots as time goes on? Or do you think that the weak spots are still there because as the company gets bigger and you deal with different problems, they keep getting exposed? You know, how do you feel? Hmm.
Dan: got to embrace the weak spots because, you know, it's sort of, yes, I do. I do. I feel much more competent, uh, than I did 10 years ago or 12 years ago. Sure. I, you know, I would hope with all this effort at this point, you know, I'm a little bit more competent. Uh, but there's always going to be areas, you know, and what I think what ends up happening is that when you identify after running a company for a long time, when you identify an area or a gap that you feel you have [00:16:00] later on in the trajectory of your company, It feels bigger because you've, you've almost feel like you overlooked something or you didn't know something, even if it's not that big and you go and, and you want to go even deeper.
So I think there's, there's absolute, I think like the more, you know, the more you want to know. And, uh, and so I, I definitely constantly identify areas that I feel like I can improve. And that's just the mindset and it's a, it's a company value. I mean, one of our values is master, right? And so. You want to, that's a lifelong journey of, of a learning mindset.
David: I, I feel like everything you said there and the part that I, that, that you said at the end is throwing yourself in to actually test that knowledge, right? I, I know a lot of people who read a lot and who listen to a lot of podcasts and do, but then it's actually throwing yourself in there and doing that.
And, and in most cases, I would say in pretty uncomfortable situations, you know, and, and that's the only, at least [00:17:00] again, different people are in different ways for me. I think that's the only. Way you can learn in this type of environment where you have to do it and you have to experience it and um, so I I I like that.
What what do you think is? Of all the things you've learned over all these years What's the one that sticks out to you that was maybe the biggest delta from before and after?
Dan: I would probably say sales. I'd never had a sales job before starting the business, but then I realized that basically sales applies to literally everything you're doing as a CEO, practically. It's like, you're, taking a message and you're convincing an audience of that message.
And. The audience can change and the message can change, but the underlying skill set is essentially the same, right? And, uh, applying curiosity in those situations. Uh, to, to, to drive home the message right to the right audience. And I, I think I really voraciously studied sales at the beginning, uh, because I didn't have the experience and I didn't have salespeople.[00:18:00]
Uh, so, uh, I had to be out in the field doing it, uh, on, on my own. I was, you know, placing 50 to a hundred cold calls a day out in the field, talking to customers all day for many years at the beginning. And that, um, so, so I felt like I needed to really consume a lot of material about sales and, you know, the, you know, uh, the, the magic of, of, like you said, throwing yourself into it when, when you, there's a, there's a, uh, a really special thing that happens when you have the opportunity to directly apply something right after you read it.
So if you can find, if you can find moments. in your journey where you are doing something organically because you have to do it. Like I had to go and do sales, right? So what better time to learn about sales than when I have to do it, right? Like there is no better set of circumstances to acquire a skill than when you can have that immediate feedback loop of going and applying what you just read.
If you're, if you're going to read about, I [00:19:00] don't know, whatever it is, MNA, and you're not in an MNA process, It's not going to be really easy to apply that knowledge, right? Uh, you'd be interesting. You can. Store that in your mind for future reference, but you're not going to have the immediate feedback loop that you get when you are engaging with the subject matter at that moment.
So I think that the sales one is a great example for me of an area that I feel that I've made a lot of progress in over the years because of how much I was able to create that immediate, okay, acquire knowledge, test it in the field, acquire knowledge, test it in the field.
David: So when you say that, what goes through my head is, you're selling, as a CEO, you're selling obviously the customer, but you're selling candidates to come work for you. You're selling investors to put money in. To your point, you're really selling all these different constituents. And I would take it a step further, which is when you have the reps that are coming fast, and you can do 10 calls in a day.
Or [00:20:00] 10 interviews in a day or 10 pitch meetings in a day, actually, the speed of that learning increases. And I, I like that, you know, just as I think about that, that's what I think about, like even going in fundraising and doing one day on Sand Hill Road and having like eight meetings. And as exhausted as I was by the 8th, I was actually the best at the 8th because I had in one day gotten the, the, the kind of the continuous feedback on the reps and you know, oh I shouldn't have said that, I should probably wait to say that, I love, I, I like that, um, I like that one a lot,
Dan: It allows you to enter a state of flow, right? You want to reach a state of flow with, with it. And, you know, there's nothing, you know, one of the things I'm most grateful for and the opportunity to do this is that I can tackle things that I'm curious about and then really immediately apply them. I mean, it's so rare to have the opportunity to do that.
You can. You can spend a lifelong, uh, you know, a [00:21:00] lifetime learning different things and not having the opportunity to really hone and craft and, uh, and revisit those things in, in the real world with real applicability. So I agree with you. It's, it's, it, despite it being the most exhausting thing, you know, at the end of the eighth meeting, you're, you're saying, I just nailed that. that. felt, that felt
great.
David: The state of flow. I like, I like it. Um, one of the other things I've noticed over the years is you, you've built up your executive team. And, and I think you correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you've done it with a mix of bringing people from outside. Um, and building people up from within the team. Um, and when you think about that 12 years.
All the executives you've had in the organization. How do you think about bringing those people on board? How do you decide which ones you're going to bring on from inside versus building up, you know, from bringing in from outside? Like, how do you
[00:22:00] think about that?
Dan: Look, I like to think about sort of, um, the hiring power of an organization. Like there's a certain amount of power that you have as a company in terms of what sorts of people you can attract to join you on the mission, right? And so I've always been very, very tactical with assessing and improving the hiring power that we have as an organization, because at the end of the day, when you're in technology.
The vast majority of your investment is going into people. So, you need to maximize that investment. Uh, that's your responsibility as a CEO. That's where most of the, the funds that you're going to raise over the course of your company, that's where they're going to go. It's going to go to hiring, right? So, um, I, I believe it's, it's really being very self aware about the hiring power that you have within the organization.
So. Um, at the beginning, you may be able to attract only a certain pool of candidates to join you because you don't have a very high, [00:23:00] uh, hiring power, right? You just don't, you don't have it. They say hire A plus players, you know, like hire the A plus players that you can get because you can't always get the best ones at the beginning, right?
You're going to do the best you can, right? And you can find diamonds, you know, here and there if you really put the energy into it. But as you, as you boost your hiring power and you, uh, and you grow as a business, then you have a lot more flexibility to design your organization. Then you can say, okay. You know, this person that I brought on, this person is showing incredible potential.
There's an opening here. Let's work to put together a collaborative plan with that person so that they can then take over this function or take over this role. So cultivating the talent internally, um, and also at the same time, having the hiring power to bring in experts that are going to be far more effective than anybody that you have in your organization today, because your organization is different than it was before.
Two years ago. So having the flexibility, the hiring power, both internally and externally, right, [00:24:00] understanding, do you have the ability to attract, and also do you have the ability to cultivate, right? Uh, with the tooling and the enablement and, uh, the career development options that you have as a business at that point, right?
David: how much of your time do you spend on
this topic?
Dan: A lot of my time goes into this topic.
David: Forever since you started the company or more and more as you've gotten
bigger?
Dan: I would say it's pretty, it's been pretty consistent. I think that, um, you know, it's changed over time in terms of where I focus my, uh, what specifical, what specific activities I'm focusing my energy on, uh, as it relates to this topic. Uh, but, uh, it's been a consistent theme throughout, you know, I think that, um, one of the, it's, it's, in my opinion, the most high leverage activity that you can be spending your time on as a CEO is finding the right.
Uh, impactful hires at different points, right? And sometimes that means that you cannot, uh, rely on anybody else but yourself to [00:25:00] do it. Uh, because you are in a, you, you're uniquely qualified to one, get responses from those very highly qualified people, right? And then two to sell them on why they should join your company, right?
So, That, that for me, what that means is that I will literally block off time hours, right on my calendar. If we have an important search going on and I will spend time going and sourcing candidates myself and looking at
background.
David: Yourself, you reach
out to them on LinkedIn, yourself, Yes, myself, because I mean, I have, I have folks that help me with the process.
Dan: It's a lot of volumes sometimes, right? So you, you need help. I have a team that helps me put together some of those outreach, but I'm the one going in sourcing and then sending that outreach directly to the candidates, reading the profiles, understanding why we think that person is a good fit. And I do believe that that, despite how tedious it may seem, uh, does have a, [00:26:00] an outsized impact.
I mean, I, you know, you can achieve 70 plus percent response rates on things like that because you are the one, uh, reason now you have taken the time to read and understand that person's background and engage with them in that way. Um, and, and I just, I think it's one of the, one of the things that I value the most and it's produced.
Incredible results for our business because we've been able to attract incredible people to the organization By placing this level of emphasis on on upping our hiring power,
David: hmm, well you, you know, when you say that, I think, like, you really are setting yourself apart because what founder, CEO of a 400 plus person company is reaching directly out to candidates. I, I, even though people think about it probably and talk about it, I'm not sure how many people do it. And if you're a candidate, I'm sure when you get that message, you say, wow, they, The CEO is reaching out.
I mean, they must really, this is not just a [00:27:00] blanket, you know, mass email that the mass LinkedIn message. I, you can see how that really, um, and again, people talk about, I'm not sure how many people actually take the time
to, to do
Dan: through a lot of uh, You know comb through a lot of different profiles. You have to take the time to understand and read Uh, you know, what are the things that this person excelled and tried and also read between the lines, understand what happened in between their different roles and what they're good at and where their strengths are, uh, and then craft something to them that's going to resonate, uh, you know, that connects, connects to their experiences and connects to, to the, back to your company.
So I, look, I, I agree. It's not the most glamorous, uh, activity, uh, to spend time on, but I find that it's very high leverage. And, uh, and super effective.
David: Do you, ever use search firms for, for, for these,
for the executive jobs?
Dan: Yeah, we do. Sometimes we do sometimes, uh, it depends, you know, sometimes, sometimes you are, um, you, it [00:28:00] depends on the role and it depends on your, your bandwidth at the time, right? Like this takes a lot of time, right. And what I'm describing, right. Um, so, uh, if, if you have at points. Uh, some, some incremental bandwidth that you can repurpose to do it.
Then I highly recommend it. If you're just so swamped for time, uh, you know, sometimes we do use the search firms for, for those, or if you feel like you have a very, very highly qualified search firm. For a firm, uh, for a, an extremely senior role and they just have an excellent network and you want to tap into that network, sometimes that's worth it more than what I could do on my own.
Right. And they may have access to people that I can't get to. Um, but there are many cases where, you know, doing it yourself is far more effective.
David: very tactical question How long do you think how long on average does an executive search a C level search
take you?
Dan: I would say three to six months at the, at the, you know, at the minimum three months, and typically I would say [00:29:00] to find the right, I mean, door to door, right? When you think about just. You know, from the beginning of the, the, the moment you decide you want to start, you know, start the search and from crafting the JD and the scorecard and all these different things up until the person is sitting behind a Glia laptop, you know, that is, I would say that is a typically somewhere in the three to six month
range, if it's a senior
hire.
Totally.
David: my favorite part everyone I ask that question just says the same thing and my favorite thing is being in a board meeting And the boards like well you need a new Whatever CXO, you know, and let's get them, you know, we'll get them next month and you're like, um, Has have you ever have any of your companies ever actually gotten them in a month?
I don't I don't think so. Um, so Um,
so one of the things you didn't come from the space that you're in I mean, this is completely you know for you. This is a completely different space. Um, but you've done It's taken time, but you've done a great job [00:30:00] disrupting this space and bringing a completely different type of solution to it.
do you think you can disrupt a space? Could you have done this if you had a lot of experience in the communications world, in the call center world, in the, you know, customer interaction? Well, it wasn't even called that, but if you, you know, if you think about that, if you'd come from that space, would
you have been as successful
as you've been to date?
Dan: It's a really great question. It's one that I think about a lot. Uh, you know, I think that there, I would say that it's a bit of a gray answer in terms of, you know, the ability for somebody who doesn't have experience in the space to execute well within the space. I think there's a spectrum, I think about a spectrum that goes from sort of the most novice, most beginner's mind possible, all the way to a highly Somebody who has a lot of context, a lot of knowledge about the space.
So you go for, you have, you know, varying degrees of that spectrum. Um, the success doesn't necessarily depend on where you sit on the spectrum. I think it really [00:31:00] depends on your self awareness of where you sit on the spectrum, you know? Uh, so I, I would say that the, the, the common trope with investors is find somebody who's been there, done that before, find somebody who has the experience, who has experience that they can connect to the problem that they're solving.
And that's typically, I mean, I think that's a, a, the lowest risk way of finding a successful founder is, you know, what was their background? How have they, have they done something similar in the past? Either started a company before, or do they have some sort of connection to the space that they're looking to disrupt, right?
That's something that VCs pay very close attention to. I believe that there's all, there's a flip side of that, which on the beginner's mind side of the spectrum, you know, you're, you're sort of unshackled. By the expectations, right? And you can attack the problem from a totally new angle or, or from various, totally new angles.
Right. And, um, and having, and having that opportunity. [00:32:00] Is, um, can produce outsized and outstanding results. Now, the key is again, the self awareness, right? Like if you don't have this knowledge, right. Or, and the context and the experience to go and tackle a space, you have to be very keenly aware of that because that's going to require a tremendous amount of learning.
It's a huge learning curve. And at every turn, you have to understand. Why did they do it this way? Was it because that's the only way to do it? Or was it because, uh, there had another motivation, a commercial motivation, that they didn't want to innovate on that particular feature because it would have cannibalized, you know, what they were doing?
With some other functionality that they have. Was it a technical limitation that existed at the time that doesn't exist now? Like you really have to spend a lot of time learning and trying to understand if you're a beginner's mind, why was it done the way it's been done before in different instances?
Um, so I, like I said, I think there, but of course there's a lot of benefit to being a very [00:33:00] experienced person who understands the space intimately, has firsthand knowledge of. The downside there is that it can, it can constrain you, like you, you sort of feel that, you know, exactly what has to, has to be done.
You have a checklist that you tick through to get it done. And, uh, you may or may not end up with something truly innovative or disruptive. So each one has their pros and cons. I don't believe that one is necessarily better than the other. But the self awareness of where you are on the spectrum can be a huge driver of success.
Because if you're highly experienced, then you have to figure out how can, how can I open my mind? How can I think differently and not be constrained? Right? So it's that self awareness that's
really important.
David: so you've been doing this 12 plus years. Um, what is the biggest challenge you've ever faced at Glia, and
did you overcome that? Were
you able to overcome
Dan: Uh, there are so many,
uh, but I [00:34:00] would say that one that sticks out is the rebranding of the company.
And one word of advice I'd probably share with your listeners is, you probably want to start a company and assume that you will rebrand at some point. I think it makes it almost easier when it actually ends up happening.
You don't really know exactly, are you positioning in the right way? You're going to learn so much, especially if you're in the market for more than, you know, three, four, five years. You're going to learn so much about your customers, about the problem that you're solving, about your technology. So you almost want to create built in expectation that you're going to rebrand if you don't, it's a lot more painful than if you do. So, you know, our original company name was SaleMove. We realized that we were really, really focused on, on servicing use cases, right? So the, the name sale move doesn't l lend itself to all of these servicing use cases that we were, um, that we were selling in the field.
And so, um, that kind of came to head when we lost our [00:35:00] largest client. Because of that confusion, they didn't really understand it. They were talking about internally and sort of, we were talking about other use cases and they just decided to use some other technology that they had in house because they didn't realize that we could solve that problem.
And it was all because of our name and the way that we had positioned the company and the, and sort of the message to the market that we were sort of sale move was very focused on sales, driving conversions and this, and that sort of, um, that sort of value proposition. And so, We decided to change the name, um, and focus exclusively on very specific use cases in industry.
And that opened up so many different challenges. I mean, finding a new name, finding a new domain. If at some point I'll tell you the story about finding a new domain. That was just absolutely wild. Uh, everybody has a good, a good old domain story. Uh, but establishing your identity, really adopting that new identity, uh, creating that company fabric.
And then when we focused and when we decided to tackle specific use cases, we have to say no [00:36:00] to a lot of opportunities. Thank you We have to, we have to literally say, we're going to put you on a wait list for now, because this is not, um, in line with what our technology, uh, is focused on right now. Right.
And that is, that is one of the hardest things that we've ever had to do is to turn away these opportunities because the opportunities can come from anywhere, right? You could have a board member that says you should talk to this company. You could have an investor, you could have a friend, you could have a client that says, Hey, you know, I have this other friend that works at this other company, this would be great for them.
Right. And you just. It doesn't fit what you're trying to do. And you have to be able to consistently say no, uh, in order to drive that focus. At least that's what our philosophy was at the time. So this new identity, all of these changes that we had to take, you know, they're, they're very fundamental, difficult changes to drive, uh, While the plane is in flight, right?
So, um, I would say that that was one of the biggest challenges, but I'm, I'm so happy that we went through it because it really positioned us much more [00:37:00] effectively for the future.
when I think about what I know of your business pre and post rebrand feels to me again, correct me if I'm wrong, feels to me like the growth. Of the business has been, I mean, it's a, you know, it's top 10%. I don't know what, you know, what you would say in terms of growth rate today, but before, before the rebrand, it was not from, from what I can remember is that was the rebrand, the catalyst.
David: Was the, or was the change of focus the catalyst? Could you have done it without rebranding? Cause it feels like that moment was the difference of kind of plotting along slowly to hyper
growth. And it feels like
it happened around that
time.
Dan: It's a good observation. And I would say that it was probably coalescing of all of those things at the same time, right? I think that the rebrand on its own would have, wouldn't have stimulated the growth, the focus on his own, maybe wouldn't have stimulated the growth. We also fundraised at that exact moment.
Like we were going through the [00:38:00] rebrand. And raising our, uh, next large institutional, uh, investment. And that happened in conjunction with the investment. So we were able to launch with a new name, new identity, new funding, new focus all at once. Right. And that, that helped sort of create that vector for growth that we really needed at that moment and positioned us, uh, much, uh, much more effectively.
So I think it was. It was a combination of all of those factors together, uh, that, that gave us a new growth curve.
David: I think, I think your advice about going into your business assuming you're going to have to go through the rebrand is really important because people get so tied to the brand and to the colors and the logo and this and they think if I rebrand no one's going to know who I am and in reality for most of us.
Most people don't really know who you are anyway, so actually the rebrand, you know, it's it's uh, [00:39:00] But you don't want to do it you fight that and it's it's a big to your point domain by itself Just that is a huge effort let alone everything else that comes with it and all the materials and all the websites and all the this and But when you know you need to do it, I do think it,
makes a
massive difference.
Dan: It can be a step change. Uh, and I think it, you know, that not, not getting too, uh, enamored with the brand and not getting too enamored with your value proposition, your messaging, your positioning, all of that. It's so much easier said than done. I mean, I, I, I agree with the advice and I would, I would say that to any founder that comes to me, he's like, don't, you know, keep a flexible mindset.
You're going to learn so much in the coming years that you may even want to change the entire direction, uh, you know, of, of the company at some point, or, you know, your focus or your name or the main message about it, you could change a whole number of things. And every single time that I have. undertaken a major change in [00:40:00] our value proposition or our message or how we talk about our solutions.
I say, okay, now we've nailed it. This is, this is the one, you know, this is, and then you learn more and you continue to evolve. So the only constant is change. I mean, I think at the end of the day, it's, it's. You accepting that as soon as you can and embracing it is, is your best bet.
David: I think for a lot of founders, they figure that out. At some point you figure out that the only constant is change. What I've noticed in my own experience and from talking to many founders is It's hard to get the team to embrace that there's only the only constant is change Do you have any advice at all on how to do that?
Because to the back to the point of the rhythm of the business people like the certainty They like to know this is happening at this time and change is uncomfortable for everyone Um, did you have any advice for how not as a founder, but how
do you
communicate that to your
team?
Dan: The bigger you get, the harder it gets, right? So, uh, when, when you're a few people, you [00:41:00] can sort of activate that sort of change, um, and spend time individually, almost with everybody telling them why it's important, right? Um, I, I do believe it actually connects back to the rhythm of the business in a lot of ways.
If you have the right cadence and the right. Um, framework set up that you say, for instance, look, every, uh, every, uh, kickoff and mid year sync, we are going to update our main, uh, presentation deck. It's going to happen every single time, right? Or if the expectation is that, um, on the quarterly, all hand I do, we do quarterly, um, we do weekly all hands that are optional for anybody to join.
And then we do. Uh, quarterly all hands where we do a review of the quarter, uh, and that's like a spe a special version of our all hands. Building in the expectations. Hey, you know, during those all hands, we're going to communicate important messages, uh, and important changes that we're making, right. But it's, I think leveraging the rhythm of the business [00:42:00] or connecting it to important external events or internal events in some ways to justify the change.
Explaining it, you know, at the end of the day, it really boils down to. How can you package it up for the team and communicate it in a way where they understand the impetus for the change? Because if it's just your gut and you don't have a rationale to sort of bring it to life for people, as you get bigger, that becomes An untenable mechanism to communicate the message.
If you're small, you can be like, Hey guys, this is what we're doing. It's changing. That's it. You know, and you don't really have to necessarily justify the change, but as you get larger and everybody has work streams and teams that are oriented around different things that you've defined in the past and you want to change those things, yeah, there's a period of time that you have to, um, figure out how to best communicate, justify, and reinforce that change. Yeah.
David: What what are you most excited about for the future of glia
Dan: Well, I mean, I still, um, you know, what gets me up in the [00:43:00] morning and gets me excited is still the, the mission, you know, we, we want to redefine the way the businesses communicate, interact with customers. And, um, our market is, So, so stagnant with the technology stack that exists today. So all the crappy experiences that you and I, and everybody listening has with customer service, that to me, if I now being in the space for so long, I can trace that back to the lack of innovation in the space, because there is a desire to preserve the status quo.
There's a desire on behalf of the space. Uh, the customer service space and the sort of the call center space in particular to preserve the status quo, um, because old school phone, that's the cash cow, you know, and nobody really wants to disrupt. Something that is their cash cow, right? So they'll do so on the margins and they'll offer different things that kind of check the boxes so that they don't really have to innovate.
It [00:44:00] seems like it's innovation theater, right? Like they're sort of kind of innovating on the margins, but not really reinventing. And we want to redefine how businesses interact with customers. That's our mission. Like we want to come in and make that when people see a demo of Glia. They always say, Whoa, this is different than anything I've ever seen, right?
I have never experienced this in the wild. I've never had this kind of interaction with a business before. Why isn't this everywhere? Right? And so what gets me excited is I want to make that experience be everywhere. I want to make those interactions, Be the rule and not the exception, right? And so for us, I still get really, really excited about all that potential.
You know, today we have over 600 clients and growing still at a, you know, at a great rate and, and, um, I can't wait for the day where, you know, the interaction is the differentiator, you know, that, that is how. The businesses are going to stand out because everything else is slowly becoming commoditized. So, uh, if [00:45:00] I can make those interactions, be the touch points that give businesses, the business value.
And as a consequence, finally create good experiences for us all as consumers. Uh, that's, that's what gets me
excited.
David: Love it. Um, let's talk about you. Where are
you from originally?
Dan: Well, I was born in New York and, uh, but I grew up in Guatemala. So my whole childhood, zero to 18, before I went to college was in Guatemala, which is, uh, unusual, I bet for, for
your podcast.
David: Yeah. why why Guatemala?
Dan: yeah, my, my grandfather, uh, you know, fled the, so all, all four of my grandparents are Holocaust survivors, which is, you know, uh, uh, makes me feel very grateful to even be here. Um, they all survived the Holocaust and my grandfather moved. From the Czech Republic to Guatemala. He wanted to get as far away as possible from Europe and everything that was happening, he managed to escape.
Um, and he started a business in [00:46:00] Guatemala, um, a manufacturing business, uh, manufacturing plastic products. And, and, um, he built it up from nothing, you know, he started selling plastic combs on a, on a bicycle all over the city. You know, he was manufacturing plastic combs with a guy he met on his journey over.
From Czechoslovakia on the boat. He was a, he was a lawyer. He met this engineer. They both started this company manufacturing plastics. And the first product was plastic combs, which at the time were manufactured out of wood and they would break, the teeth would break. And so they had a really unique product because, you know, they were much more durable, but just as effective.
And so he was riding around on a bicycle, selling these COMS all over Guatemala. Um, and he, you know, he started to see some success. He started to diversify, bring in new products, and then eventually, you know, he set up his life there. Um, and, uh, Wow. uh, yeah, that's where that's where I grew up.
David: And did you, was he alive when you were growing up? Did
you, did you see that
business?
Dan: Yeah, the business is still running [00:47:00] today. I, I, um, I had a lot of opportunities to I've had a lot of opportunities to see the business, um, you know, the business challenges and the business opportunities that my family has been through. Uh, and that's shaped me and I, I, he was alive, but, uh, only for a short period.
Uh, when I, you know, I, who's, he passed away when I was around five years old. So I got a chance to. Spend, uh, some time with him. I wish it would've been more, but, uh, the business is still around today and it's, it's been a, a really important sort of formative aspect of who I've become, uh, because I was surrounded by, you know, uh, business owners and, um, and a company that, you know, went through a a lot of different, like I said, a lot of different challenges and opportunities.
David: do you think that that is why you are a CEO, founder, CEO today? Is it from
that
experience?
Dan: I believe it has a large, you know, I think it had a large impact on it for sure. You know, understanding and seeing it firsthand and, um, watching my parents operate the business and my family [00:48:00] operate the business and, uh, Uh, definitely had an impact on what I thought I was going to end up being a doctor, but, uh, you know, I, the, the, the entrepreneurial DNA was deep.
And so once I started, uh, once I went to college, I realized that my interests were elsewhere and I, I, I came back to entrepreneurship and business, uh, You know, after some time, but yeah, I definitely think it had a big impact.
David: What was your first job ever?
Dan: Well, I worked with my, I worked at the family business, you know, like literally doing data entry when I was 11 years old, I wanted to do it. I kept insisting that I wanted to come work. at, at the, uh, at the f so they put me on, you kn data entry job, which I l got a chance to sort of h products and put the prod and, and sort of work in I was in love with it.
I thought it was so much, it was like a playground for me at the time. So
David: [00:49:00] What, uh. What is it deep down that motivates you? You know, you've been doing this for a while, you've been successful, but it's a grind. It's a grind for everyone. Deep down, what is that motivation? I know you're motivated by fixing this problem in the world,
but your personal
motivation?
Dan: look, I think that it's, I think I consider myself incredibly grateful or I am incredibly grateful and I consider myself incredibly lucky to be on this journey because of what we were talking about earlier, which is the ability to acquire knowledge and then apply the knowledge so immediately and get that feedback loop.
I mean, that gives meaning to my life. I love the opportunity to. learn and grow and, um, and to drive forward, uh, my own self improvement and, uh, hopefully also the improvement of others around me, you know, uh, through, through what we're doing. So from my perspective, [00:50:00] it's just this quest that I've, you know, I I'm on for my own self to just always be learning, always be growing.
I think that that's what keeps us alive as, as people is, is that search and hunger for, for knowledge and curiosity. Uh, and I can't think of a better way to manifest that than with what I'm doing, right? I can't, if I had to, um, if I could do anything, this is what I would be doing, right? So it's the ability to have that arena to play in and to, uh, acquire the knowledge and then apply it is, is really, really special.
And then of course, the, what I said before, the motivation of, of fixing this problem, which is a problem that we're all very, uh, painfully familiar with. So, uh, that motivates me for sure.
David: Do you do you have any lessons that you've learned on a again on a personal level over these years about You know staying sane I don't know how else to say it right is like is as you go through the ups and downs and all the challenges Is there anything you've learned? You [00:51:00] know or or ways that you take care of
yourself to stay sane throughout throughout
all
Dan: Yeah. I look, I think it's finding time for, for clarity of thought, you know, whether that be through meditation or walking my dog or just getting some time to disconnect, uh, from the. Um, from the problems that we're solving. Uh, I think that's a, that's a necessary mechanism to stay sane. You know, one of those two things, like finding either the space or the time to do something where you can really be focused on the present.
Again, a lot of people access that through meditation. So I, I like, I like that element. One of the things that I, um, that I think is, is super important as well is finding, uh, others that are experiencing similar journeys or have experienced the journey in the past and having the opportunity to surround yourselves with, surround yourself with those people, right?
Um, I have an incredible group of advisors that I tap into on [00:52:00] a regular basis and I'm always growing that advisor base. You know, so, uh, when I hear somebody on a podcast or when I, uh, um, meet somebody at a conference or when I see somebody on LinkedIn that liked a comment from somebody else and I said, Oh, let me, you know, let's see who this person is.
And I find that they have something that I'd love to learn from. I make it a point to, to, to try and reach out. And if we develop a relationship, then bringing them on either officially or unofficially as an advisor, I think that's been You know, and a really important, uh, mechanism to, to, uh, keep yourself grounded, uh, to learn from others.
And, and, and yeah, and like I said, sort of the finding the time and space to be present is also really,
David: if you go back everything you've learned to date in all your in your entire career in your life What advice would you give yourself at
the very beginning of your career knowing
what you know today?
Dan: well, I would say that probably, probably sticking [00:53:00] with my, my classic follow up and follow through would be the best advice that I could give myself. Uh, it may seem. where you are stagnating or there isn't a breakthrough or, um, you running up against something that feels impossible to overcome. And I've, I've really stuck with follow up and follow through.
And that, that, I feel like that reminder to myself in the early years would be, would have been helpful because, you know, sometimes you can get discouraged. It's really challenging at the beginning and even, you know, throughout, uh, to maintain, uh, Persistence, but it's as simple as follow up and follow through.
Make sure that you have the persistence, make sure that when follow up relates to persistence and follow through relates to reliability. So anytime you, you, um, anytime you encounter a situation, have you followed up. Enough that there are no angles left to play. Uh, and for follow through is when you encounter a [00:54:00] situation, did you say, did you do what you said you were going to do?
Right. And so I think like adhering to that maximum, making sure that's top of mind from beginning to end is what I would tell myself if I could go back.
David: I actually think that's great advice for anyone in any job at any level. Follow up and follow through. I think that's one that it's somehow in that you kind of encapsulate everything that Actually, if I think about the best people that I've worked with, period, that probably describes those people, is that they have that persistence.
And they do what they say they're going to do. Actually, if you go around and ask people, who's the best person you ever worked with? Probably they're going to say something to that effect. And when you say that, I think about myself early in my career. And you think to yourself, like, when you start working, I don't know how you felt, when I [00:55:00] started working, you, you do, you got some nervousness.
That first job, that first, am I going to be able to live up to the thing? Will I be successful? And then when you get into the working world, You actually realize it's not that difficult. If, if you follow up and follow through,
you'll be better than 90 percent of the
people that you
work
with.
Dan: hundred percent. And, and it, and it creates a, it creates a bulletproof reputation. You know, if you can consistently do those two things. Your reputation, uh, will precede you anywhere you go, uh, and people will quickly realize it too. Like you can quickly tell if somebody has those two qualities when they start working with you.
David: I like that. It's a simple way of actually encapsulating everything. Um, I like that. Cool, well, if people want to connect with you, if someone listens to this
podcast and wants to get your advice,
how should they do that?
Dan: the best way to find me is on LinkedIn. You can reach out and, uh, you know, of course, glia. com. And, uh, yeah, those would be the best the best places to find
me.
David: [00:56:00] Great. Dan, this was, this was amazing. I, I, um, There are a couple things in there that I, I love. The forcing function, the, the, you know, using the rhythm of the business, the follow up, follow through. I love it. I think, um, these are, these are gems that in, in, in short way kind of explained, uh, very complex,
uh, you know, concept.
So thank you very much
for
doing
this
Dan: Oh, thank you. And thank you for your contribution to this community and bringing these voices to everybody. I hope that it was helpful for, for those listening and I've already benefited from listening to your episodes, uh, prior to this one. So keep at it. It's, it's it's great. It's great
stuff.
David: Thank you, Dan. And for those listening, hope you enjoyed, hope you learned something or multiple things today. And if you enjoyed the episode, please share it with your network, like it, subscribe, all of that. Um, and, and we'll see you for the next episode of Not Another CEO Podcast. [00:57:00]
