How do you scale a company to $200 million+ in ARR while maintaining deep empathy for the customer? In this episode of Not Another CEO Podcast, David Politis sits down with Todd Olson, the Founder and CEO of Pendo, to find out.
Todd shares the values and rituals that helped him scale Pendo into a product-led powerhouse, including his unwavering commitment to customer-centricity, his direct approach to hiring, and the operating cadence that keeps his nearly 900-person team aligned. Todd reflects on the highs, lows, and philosophies that have guided his journey.
Takeaways:
Customer Obsession as a Foundational Value: Todd emphasizes how being “maniacally focused on the customer” has guided every stage of Pendo’s growth. From answering support tickets himself in the early days to personally monitoring feedback as CEO, he’s created a culture where customer empathy cascades through every department.
Every Hire Must Talk to Customers: Todd shares a hiring principle he’s followed since day one: only hire people you'd trust on the phone with a customer. This standard shaped Pendo’s culture, even affecting how they screen engineers, ensuring they’re willing and able to engage directly with users.
Personally Interviewing Hundreds: At one point, Todd personally interviewed every employee… almost 800 people. Beyond vetting talent, it was a powerful tool for maintaining cultural consistency and calibrating hiring managers across the org. He also ran 90-day check-ins with new hires to ensure expectations matched reality.
Product Leadership Rooted in Vision: Though product leadership has evolved at Pendo, Todd has remained deeply involved in product vision and strategy. He describes how he stays hands-on with design sessions, brainstorming new features, and ensuring Pendo’s tools meet the high bar of product teams building for product teams.
Disciplined Operating Rhythm: Todd credits much of Pendo’s success to a consistent cadence of planning and communication. Annual and quarterly planning rituals, town halls, and regular team offsites help align the company around shared goals and keep stress in check during turbulent times.
Built in Raleigh, Built to Last: Despite early pressure to move to Silicon Valley, Todd built and scaled Pendo out of Raleigh, North Carolina. He shares how the local ecosystem shaped the company and how hiring executives from outside the region helped them compete on a national scale while staying grounded in local roots.
Quote of the Show:
"Nearly every product is like, strongly opinionated, meaning when you use it, you feel like it has a point of view that it’s trying to impart." - Todd Olson
Links:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/toddaolson
Twitter (X): https://x.com/tolson
Company Website: https://www.pendo.io/
Ways to Tune In:
Spotify:
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Amazon Music: https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/7c6328f0-9b42-41db-8fe2-d263b4fbb261
Transistor: https://podcast.notanotherceo.com/
#NotAnotherCEO #BusinessSuccess #Pendo
Chapters:
00:00 Intro
01:23 The Importance of Customer Obsession
02:34 Early Days and Customer Engagement
04:57 Hiring for Customer Focus
08:39 Personal Stories and Career Reflections
11:27 Interviewing Every Employee
18:24 Product Evolution and Ideal Customer Profile
26:19 Operating Rhythm and Business Cadence
34:53 Adapting and Planning for Long-Term Success
37:17 Biggest Challenges Faced at Pendo
43:56 Future Vision for Pendo
47:00 Early Career and Entrepreneurial Spark
53:49 Building a Business in Raleigh
56:59 Balancing Family and Business
01:02:55 Outro
Transcript:
[00:00:00] Todd: When you see a human being dive across a desk, it leaves an impression on you, like hey this really, really matters.
[00:00:31] David: Today's guest is a product visionary and a powerhouse in the world of SaaS. He started a number of companies over the course of his career, but the success of his current company is at a different level. He started the company 11 years ago, and in that time has raised over $400 million and has built a business to over 200 million in annual recurring revenue.
[00:00:51] The company has become the definitive platform for product analytics, user engagement, and in-app guidance, empowering thousands of [00:01:00] businesses to build products that their users love. He's an entrepreneur who truly knows what it takes to scale a company. From an idea to a category leader, please welcome founder and CEO of Pendo, Todd Olson.
[00:01:12] Todd: Thank you. Thanks. Great to be here.
[00:01:14] David: I'm very good, very good to see you. Um, like I mentioned, I'm moving, so I'm in a studio here so it looks different for people who are watching. Um, we're gonna jump right into it. First question, what is the one thing you've done at Pendo, big or small, that's had the biggest impact and you would do again if you're CEO, of another company in the future?
[00:01:33] Todd: You know, I've got a bunch to choose from, but I, I think the thing that I would pick was just having an obsession over customers, not customers, how we engage with 'em. So one of our core values is maniacally focused on the customer. If you go back throughout time and you kinda look at a lot of our signature milestones, whether it's financing or an a RR threshold, I think obsessing over customers and building.
[00:01:58] Happy, [00:02:00] um, advocates is just, uh, it's, um, something I would absolutely do again. And like if you go to our user conference, there's people that come up and like, give me hugs and want selfies and, and, uh, I get re like random reach outs on LinkedIn or email almost weekly from people that say, we just love what you stand for and love how you take care of customers and love how you take our feedback.
[00:02:22] And I, I think creating that sort of like, that maniacal focus on taking care of customers and it, it has to cascade throughout the whole business, I think is the thing I would, I would never lose.
[00:02:34] David: if we go to day one of Pendo, how does it manifest itself when you say that? Because I find that a lot of founders, they say it, I know you and I know how maniacally focused you are on the customer.
[00:02:48] People say it, but I don't know if they actually do it. You know, like what, what does that mean to you? In the early days?
[00:02:54] Todd: So the early days it was like. Myself, myself and everyone is in the support queue. And very [00:03:00] often I was the first person to respond, the first person to get on the phone. And I think one of the, the early motions we did was the fact that we were very quick to get on the phone. Like how often is it that you reach out to support that they want to have like three back and forths before they resolve your question.
[00:03:15] Like, that's irritating. Like none of us like that. So me, if someone messaged me something, I'd say, let's just jump on the phone, jump on a Zoom, like let's just take a look at it and then we resolve it right there. And I, I think creating that attitude where we just like jump on things and take care of it, that's been to me one of the early things, really early days now.
[00:03:38] One of the things we do is we, we collect net promoter score from all of our customers. There's a Slack channel where I get to see every single one, and we comment on 'em. Like, if it's like, you know, sometimes we'll celebrate. I'm, I'm, I'm not great at celebration, by the way. So like, if you had to talk any of my weaknesses, it's rare.
[00:03:53] I like the, like celebrating a good good, but like if there's a bad one, oh man, we're on it and we're already of [00:04:00] action on 'em. Someone's reaching out often, executives reaching out. Um, but I will reach out to a number of them. Now, granted, sometimes at junior pm getting on the phone with me is a little shocking to the junior PM on the customer side because they're like, I cannot believe that I'm taking, you know, 20 minutes outta my day to talk to them.
[00:04:16] But we read everything and we take it all seriously. And even the snarky ones, there's a lesson in the snarky ones because trust me, you get plenty of people that have a snarky response, but. I'll reach out personally to the snarky one saying, Hey look, I'm sorry that whatever we did caused you to leave this feedback.
[00:04:34] I mean, if the person looks unhappy, like, and somehow we caused it, like I, I don't wanna be part of that, you know, I don't wanna address it. So I think even today it happens and we we're in nearly 900 person company, so I think it's something we do take quite
[00:04:48] David: seriously. Wow. I love that you, you monitor that Slack channel with the NPS course. Wow. I love that.
[00:04:56] Todd: Yeah.
[00:04:57] David: Um, I want to ask you [00:05:00] how, when you, so, 'cause it's so embedded in the, like in your values, how do you hire.
[00:05:06] For people who share that?
[00:05:09] Todd: Well, early days, I think, you know, like, you know, going back to the early days, you know, one of the things that we had a agreement amongst the co-founders is that we're not gonna hire anyone that we wouldn't feel comfortable putting on a phone with a customer. Which, by the way, impacts your engineering hiring because you talk to plenty of engineering leaders that are just as happy hiring someone that will sit in a cubicle or, you know, a dark place and just like nerd out, like, you know, and those are great engineers.
[00:05:37] I've worked with them in my past. That's not who we hire Pendo. Like we're gonna hire an engineer that we're gonna put on a phone with a customer if it, necessitates it. And, we are very quick to put an engineer on the phone with a customer. if That's what it takes. So, I think that's affected hiring.
[00:05:53] So we talk to people about their comfort level of speaking with customers and, if they don't want that as an engineer, they [00:06:00] don't come work here. So that, that's probably one of the first things we did. Um, when I interview folks on the go to market side. You know, they're gonna have to walk through specific examples of customers.
[00:06:11] And most of the people we hired know the people's names. Like, I wanna know that, you know, that it's, you know, Sarah or Derek, or it was like Sam that like helped champion this deal. Like, you need to know them on a first name basis. And if you don't think of these people on a first name basis, you again, it's probably not a great fit.
[00:06:30] So like I can tell you the people at all these companies who we work with, 'cause like these like, like these people are like, they're, they're putting their jobs on the line for your company. Like you should know their name and what they stand for and what they care about. So I think that's the kind of people we like to attract here.
[00:06:47] David: Uh, I really like the question. Like to get to the name of the customer. How do you have like a question you ask? Because I really like That is a good, [00:07:00] that's a good test.
[00:07:00] Like, tell me the,
[00:07:02] Todd: Well, I don't usually tell me
[00:07:02] that, but I'll say like, like tell me of a, you know, customer situation or, or win that you're particularly, or even a loss that you're particularly proud of, the way you handle it. And they'll go into it. And I was like, like, who'd you work with on the other side? And it's a good test.
[00:07:16] Like, they should know most, like, pretty much everyone here knows, like their top wins are top losses and who they're working with, so,
[00:07:23] David: you know? Yeah. I mean, I can think about stories from BetterCloud. I can think of the exact customer and exactly where I was when they told me this. And, and I think that that's a, that's a great, I love that to like, from an interview perspective.
[00:07:35] I, I like that a lot. Um, I never asked that question actually. I never,
[00:07:40] Todd: well, it's also measuring someone's attention to detail. Um, and like, look, our, our first user was Amy, Amy Adriano. She's not married, so I, I don't, so I know her maiden name, not her, not her married name, but, um, uh. I talked to Amy every week for like, like, this is 11 years ago, but like every week for weeks to [00:08:00] like, just listen to her and get her like, no, I'll never forget that name.
[00:08:02] You know? Um, you know, her boss, you know, um, I, you know, David, so like, first purchaser, first signature. Of course, I remember the negotiation. So like vividly. So like, like these are the things that, like, these pivotal moments, you know? Um, yeah, I mean a lot since then.
[00:08:21] And if you were really the one who's working on it and in the details, you would know. Whereas if you was like, if you were a passenger, like on a team, like you wouldn't have known the details potentially. But I, I think that's the other thing I, we're, we're trying to hire owners and like people who are owners know these details.
[00:08:39] David: does this, does this maniacal focus, has it been like this day one, I'm saying not app Pendo, I'm saying your career, like, is this in you innately, or did something happen that kind of, uh, brought you to this, you know, place?
[00:08:54] Todd: Yeah, so
[00:08:54] David: Yeah, so
[00:08:55] Todd: very fortunate that I did start working in a very early age, like eight, professionally. At age 10. [00:09:00] 10. That's terrible. Uh, 14, sorry. Uh, I dunno why I said 10, but, uh, uh, but age 14, I started working professionally at a bank called MBA, um, uh, eventually became part of Bank of America, but, but they had like all these like, you know, words and quotes around, think of yourself as a customer over everything.
[00:09:20] And I, I thought it was, you know, honestly at 14, I was too naive to think it was cheesy. You know, like, like a lot of people, like a lot of adults have like a bit of cynicism at 14. You're not cynical. I re I mean, it's hard to remember back to those days, but I was like. I was just trying to be the best at everything.
[00:09:37] Then I was so nervous that they're gonna get rid of me because I was so young that I just tried to soak it all up and tried to like embody these values and these ideas. And, and, and as part of the accountability and metrics behind taking care of customers, they had a metric around two ring pickup. Now again, these are the days when people had phones in every desks and they didn't want a customer listening to more than two [00:10:00] rings.
[00:10:00] So like everyone's bonus got CalEd on, uh, having more than like 97% two ring pickup, which is really high. But I would watch at age 14 people dive across desks to pick up a phone. So when you see a human being dive across a desk, it, leaves an impression on you, like hey, this really, really matters.
[00:10:18] um, so that, that was formative for me and that was a very early age. Now, a, as you said, the bio, I had several startups in between, um, in between those days, of course, 14 and Pendo and. I'll be honest, none of the other companies that either even I started or I worked at, I did a good job embodying that.
[00:10:38] Like, I felt it. But um, but it was missing. It was missing. And I, I mean, then I've worked at companies or been acquired into companies where the customer wasn't number one. It was the employee very, very often. Like, and, and I think that's okay for some cultures. It just wasn't the culture I wanted to create.
[00:10:57] And, and then, um, yeah, and, [00:11:00] and some of these companies, I'd be in executive meeting and they'd be like, we need the voice of the customer in the room. And I'll tell you, you don't hear that at Pendo because everyone's thinking about the customer all the time. Like, we don't need to bring the customer into the room.
[00:11:12] Like we're all talking to customers all the time. So like, I feel like it's something that hasn't been missing for us. And, um, and I think it's, it starts with day one of having that, that
[00:11:22] David: that mentality. Hmm. I have so many que I have so many questions, so many different directions. Um, I wanna talk about interviewing for a second because one of the things that I, that I've heard is you interviewed every person up to some very high number.
[00:11:37] If I understood correctly, it was 800 or something like that. definitely was north of 5 probably
[00:11:42] Todd: close to 8 Yeah.
[00:11:43] David: Okay. So you interviewed every person,
[00:11:45] Todd: every human yeah every person that, that, that has been hired, that was hired up until that point you interviewed?
[00:11:51] Yeah.
[00:11:53] David: How, how did you do that?
[00:11:56] Why did you do that? Uh, I, I have a lot of que [00:12:00] like, I, I enjoy interviewing actually. Um, I've interviewed a lot of people, but at some point, like, that's so many people. I mean, how do you have the time for that? How or how did you have the time for that?
[00:12:10] Todd: Yeah I mean, there was a point in my, my, uh, time here where, yeah, if you looked at my schedule and I color coded or my, or Jamie color coded so I don't do shit. So I just let her take care of it. So, uh. Yeah, most the color was, was yellow, which is interviews. I mean, you just see a sea of them. Um, uh, and I would go late into the night.
[00:12:30] I would do early mornings. I, I would like, you name it, I would, I would do what I needed to do. So, um, but I, I, I think, um, it was a hack for so many things. Like, yes, interviewing's a piece of it, and you're trying to maintain a high quality bar. But it's also an interesting way to have impromptu coaching because I get a bunch of candidates and go back to the hiring managers.
[00:12:51] Like, what the hell are you doing? Like, like, why are you even sending these people to me? Like, like, I think you need this. You're sending me this other, you know, [00:13:00] um, background. Like, like we are not calibrated on what you need for your org, or you just start to see patterns emerge. And, um, I use it a lot for coaching sessions.
[00:13:11] I would read other people's, um. Scorecards, and then I would go back and provide feedback like, why did you ask this question? Or how did you miss this? Or, you know, like, why aren't we for, you know, formulating that? So, um, so I think, I think it was a, it was very, very useful to keep a good firm grasp with everything happening at the company.
[00:13:32] I knew everything that happened in the company when I'm doing that. And I know a lot of people coming in and even to this day, you know, because we've large cohorts that all interviewed me, they'll tell me some of the questions I asked, you know, in the interviews. And some of 'em are pretty, I, I am known for being direct.
[00:13:46] You mean I, I apparently looked at someone and said, you've, you've worked in five different industries. Like, have you finally figured out what you wanna do when you grow up? Or like, or are we gonna like help figure that out for you? So, but by being as [00:14:00] direct with people, you tend to like, um, shake things out pretty fast.
[00:14:05] And some of those people that, that I interviewed, a lot of 'em still here. And, um, you build a relationship early. And of course the other piece is I'm selling. Pretty actively, um, in, in, in those interviews. And the other thing which, um, which I, I, uh, don't talk about a lot now, but I also did a 90 day check with every single employee at the company.
[00:14:27] 90 days after 90 days they've been here. I go back and say, I talked to you 90 days ago. when We hired you. What differs from what you thought you were joining, either in the role or in the company or in the culture? Um, is it still a good fit? You know, you know, if it's a rep, have they closed a deal yet and why or why not?
[00:14:49] You know, like these are all like, like really important, you know, pieces that, um, yeah, I mean, look, you get people right? In a business a lot [00:15:00] else gets easier. So like, it really does come down to like, if you want to have a huge impact on your company, you know, if you closely guard culture and people and, and you hire well, like, you're gonna look really smart.
[00:15:14] Like your strategy looks genius when you hire a lot of really good people. So, like, for me, it's just, you get that right, you know you're gonna, you're gonna be successful.
[00:15:23] David: Why did you stop doing it
[00:15:25] Todd: I mean, it does get to a scale level where, you know, you start having to hire 500 people in a year, 600 people in a year, you know, extra.
[00:15:33] You know that that is brutal. And um, and then you also realize you get to a point where I needed to do a better job of teaching what I was doing and the company not relying on me as the backstop. Because the reality is the company becomes very, like, it becomes risk of risky if what we found is managers were sending through candidates and just letting me be the backstop.
[00:15:57] And so they weren't building the muscles they needed to [00:16:00] do to like really execute at scale. And, um, I still would like, would spot check or check things. I mean, look, I still approve every offer and I, I reject plenty offers. You know, like if there's a mistake and like a single scorecard, like yeah, it gets rejected, you know?
[00:16:18] I was like,
[00:16:19] everyone knows, like, yeah, I'm gonna read pretty much every scorecard, every single time. So there's, there's like, you, you know, you want it like a culture of like, there's going to be accountability at every every level and, and it just forces, you know, it causes people to take it very seriously.
[00:16:33] We want be able to it seriously. But yeah, I, I think people were using me as a crutch and that's ultimately not great for Pendo.
[00:16:39] David: Mm-hmm. It's interesting when you said before, like you would, someone would say to, you would say to someone like, how did you not find that? Or they would say to you, how did you find that?
[00:16:49] Like in the interview, I, I've had that experience. It's kind of interesting where maybe it is the founder CEO thing. Maybe it's 'cause we've done thousands and thousands of interviews, but somehow [00:17:00] you end up finding, uncovering things in the discussion. That wasn't found out for five interviews before it got to you.
[00:17:09] You know? And I, I think the part about teaching other people how to interview is, is really, I think that's a really important point. 'cause I think most people have never been trained on interviewing. You've only been interviewed as the candidate. But, you know, then one day Todd says, Hey, go in and interview.
[00:17:28] And you're like no one ever told me. So you just follow, you know, the resume down or, you know, whatever. But you don't really know how to ask the questions.
[00:17:37] Todd: Yeah. Yeah. I started codifying all the questions I asked, why? I asked 'em, you know, what I look for in a resume, like, you know, yellow flags, red flags, things I interrogate, you know? And I, I wrote 'em all down. I shared 'em with all of our managers, our, uh, people team, you know. So it's, it's really just now taking years of interviewing like thousands of people and trying to just fill it down and [00:18:00] like, how do you, like, how do you conduct a, a proper interview and how do you, how do you go deep?
[00:18:03] And even then you make mistakes. Like, we're all gonna make mistakes, you know? Um, and I think that's the other thing to acknowledge is like, we're human. We're gonna make mistakes, interviewing. Some people are, are really, really, really good at interviewing. So like, like they, they can, they, they can get past you.
[00:18:19] But, um, um, I, I do think more feedback's always better.
[00:18:24] David: So I wanna talk about the, the, the customer obsession now in a different way around, um, product evolution. Your product has evolved. I mean, from the first time we ever met each other
[00:18:36] Todd: Yeah.
[00:18:36] David: today. I mean, it's not even, it's like a full on massive platform now. Um, how involved have you been every step of the way in the.
[00:18:47] Product decisions, is that on you? Is that on your, one of your co-founders? You know, it kind of, it's, it's almost, I'm I'm asking almost the same as the hiring, like, do you evolve out of that or [00:19:00] are you kind of in the weeds on every single decision that's being made there?
[00:19:05] Todd: Yeah, I mean, look, I, I, um, it's of course evolved in, in, in, been different, different periods of, of Pendo history. So, and we've had, um, right now, yeah, my co-founder is the chief product officer, but that's actually a relatively recent change. He sort of assumed that position last, uh, December before that Tricia Price, amazing chief product Officer.
[00:19:26] And before that Brian Cross, like, like all like really, really, really, really good product leaders. So like, you know, um. And I would be like doing both of them a disservice to say that. Like I, you know, micromanaged every single solitary product decisions. But having said that, you know, the vision for the product and the company, you know, came from my experience.
[00:19:45] So I am very involved in product and, um, and yeah, like I've been involved in a lot of, certainly the major decisions, like what products we're building, what new products we're building. You know, I think, um, I, I, I think every [00:20:00] product has, like, I think one of the things I like to say is like, nearly every product is like, strongly opinionated, meaning when you use it, you feel like, you know, um, it has a point of view that is trying to impart.
[00:20:12] And, and, and I think we, we formed an early point of view around, um, we wanted to build a product for product that, that, you know, would be as good as them running it from scratch. You know, like if you were doing a. What Pendo does as an in-house project building all these tools yourself, we wanted ours to be as good as the one probably better, of course, than the ones you're building yourself.
[00:20:33] And you feel comfortable with that, with a sort, like giving us that responsibility. Like, I want you to feel so confident in me that you're gonna, you're gonna give me that responsibility. So we take that very, very seriously. Um, it means our quality needs to be high, our performance needs to be great. We, we, um, it needs to, when we're inside of other people's products, like of course never impacted adversely.
[00:20:53] It always, it always, you know, uh, needs to work as good or better. Um, so I think those are the principles early on that, [00:21:00] that I, I was, um, uh, pretty adamant about. And, and I, I, I love being in design sessions. I love being in design sessions. Even today, a lot of product managers will grab me and show me mockups ideas, we'll brainstorm.
[00:21:13] Um, yeah, I mean, I'd say like in general, of all the departments I've been involved in, I think product's, the one I'm probably most involved in day to day. And then. Go to market as well. So like those are the two where I probably spend the most amount of time instead of just like hours of my day.
[00:21:30] David: Hmm. Now, if we talk about product and this evolution, can you, you know, how, how focused a topic that I'm very passionate about, that I've gone through my own experience with is getting super focused on an ideal customer profile.
[00:21:46] Like I, I believe, you know, especially kind of call it 10 million, 50 million, that kind of range. It's really important to be focused on a customer so that you can speak to that customer so that [00:22:00] you can live that customer's kind of pains and everything. How focused is your ICP? You know, you talk about selling to product departments and has that been from day one?
[00:22:11] Like have you stayed hyper-focused there?
[00:22:14] Todd: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Like I think if all the things we've been really consistent on is, is selling to product, product manager, like. Even when we've been told that, you know, product doesn't have a budget, product doesn't buy things, doesn't power.
[00:22:31] You know, stubborn and, and like us marketing to, and selling to product. Now, having said that, do roles outside of product use? Pendo? Yeah. Day in, day out. Like we have marketers that use this. We have customer successes, but when I, when I think about what we build and then we think about ICP, we're building for the product manager.
[00:22:49] Now, I will say this year. The first year in like Pendo history, we are talking about other personas and building for other personas. Um, um, I think we've finally gotten big [00:23:00] enough and you know, that there's a lot of value with, with going outside of product and building for, for different adjacencies. It, it also is, you know, it's also we're an enterprise company and we're, our, our ASPs are getting much, much larger.
[00:23:15] So when you're, when you're asking and, and, and, you know, having million dollar conversations with customers, you want more than one department to get value outta your solution. When it's just on one, it, it, uh, I think it's a harder conversation, but we, up until recent have been incredibly consistent here.
[00:23:32] So like to the point where I and some folks, so this week we, we've acquired two communities and which include. Um, uh, conferences and like, you know, content. So we own two product communities now. So like we've unified it into, into one larger one called Mind the Product. Um, but like industry in the US is now part of Pendo, New York Product conference is part of Pendo, you know, mind the products, multiple [00:24:00] events or product Pendo.
[00:24:00] So like, like we, this is very serious for us. Yeah. So yeah, it's not just, we build products for product. We host the industry events for product as well. So like, it, it is a core way that we think.
[00:24:12] David: And, and were there any other firmographic attributes that would, you would use, you know, so you're like, okay, we're selling to product.
[00:24:21] Was there something about the type of company, the size of company, you know how, how one of my guests said you have to segment until it hurts. That was his exact quote. When it comes to like finding that ICP, was that the same for you?
[00:24:36] Todd: I think in the early, early days, sure. We, we were definitely, definitely focused on B2B SaaS. You know, if you look at other folks in the space, I'd say we are the only company that that really went like, like full on B2B. Uh. Yeah, like, like I think that's been one of the biggest areas of differentiation.
[00:24:56] Look at pretty much everyone else. Our space focused on B2C and we focused on B2B and [00:25:00] we were pretty dominant. And, and because we built things that we knew B2B product managers care about. And um, so we built the concept of a customer within product analytics. We're the first company to do that and have as a first class citizen.
[00:25:13] And that's why customer success ended up using our product. 'cause we had such great data around it, but it wasn't by the design to have that persona, it was because we're trying to arm product managers with the information. So, um, so that was kind of the, the biggest area that we focused on. Then as we moved to the enterprise, we started getting pulled into employee facing apps.
[00:25:33] So I'd say our two biggest areas of focus is anything, B2B and anything we call B two E or business to employee. Um, those are our strongest areas and, um. We do have a few B2C customers, and it is an area that, that we will certainly, if, if the opportunity bill fits us, we will, we will go in earnest that, but, but we don't market it heavily.
[00:25:58] I, I, I would say if you, [00:26:00] you, you look at our strategy, we think the market's massive without even doing that yet. Now look long term, you know, looking at 10 year horizon where we do it, of course we'll, but I think for now it's B2B, um, B two E is the biggest area of growth for us now that we're spending a lot of our, our, our calories on.
[00:26:17] And then, you know, I think B2C is still out there.
[00:26:19] David: Can we, can we, I wanna shift gears to the operating rhythm of the business. It's another area I'm very passionate about, and I, the only way you can get to your scale is by being good at that. You know, I, I kind of call it the breathing apparatus of, of the business.
[00:26:35] What is your operating rhythm for Pendo today?
[00:26:39] Todd: Yeah. Yeah. And. Going back to even your first question. I'd say this is a close second to like what I would do again, that I think has had a, a, a dramatic impact on our success. But we have a very, very strong operating rhythm here at Pendo and has since day one. So, you know, we do annual planning, we set our goals for the year, our theme for the year.
[00:26:59] We, every year we have a [00:27:00] theme, a rallying cry. Um, and then, uh, every quarter we check in against that and we have a set of quarterly priorities as well. So, so at any given time, anyone at Penn should know what a rallying cry is for the year, what our top three priorities are, that sort of like ladder up to that.
[00:27:15] And then they should have done the work to cascade that down and understand how, what they're doing, like their individual priorities connect to the company's top three initiatives, and ultimately the rallying cry for the business. So, so that's, um, a, a big part of what we do. So that's annual planning.
[00:27:31] Quarterly planning. They're, they're almost always offsites. The, the first I. Usually two days is, uh, my direct, and then we cascade it usually the day after to the entire VP and, and below teams. All happens within generally one week. Um, and then at the beginning of every quarter, I do a quarterly, kickoff through the entire business.
[00:27:53] it's live in, office and then recorded for everyone else that'll go through, you know, [00:28:00] honestly a full look back at the quarter, all the numbers, highlights, and then what the focus is for this upcoming quarter. And that is something we've been doing since we were like five people, like, like we are very disciplined about it.
[00:28:11] Um, annual planning kickoff, like we kick off every quarter. I, I, I, um, uh, like a lot of work goes into those decks and presentations, but, um, but yeah, that, that thing we do all the time. And then my, my C team. You know, the additional cadence for them is, um, they meet, we meet weekly as a C team. Of course. We, we, we shift every week between tactical topics on one week.
[00:28:38] The other week we do strategic topics. So like we go back and forth. Um, we do, uh, q Bs after every quarter for the broader executive team. Uh, that's another piece that, that we do. And then,
[00:28:52] David: do you do all hands more regularly than the quarterly?
[00:28:55] Todd: other week we do an all hands,
[00:28:57] David: Every other week. yeah,
[00:28:58] Todd: Yeah. every other week we do an all [00:29:00] hands. Um, and it has like, we do anonymous, you know, questions anonymous, AMAs, every single, every single town hall.
[00:29:10] We go through those top three things. Every single town hall remind people of that. Like every meeting starts with, this is our theme. This is our, uh, these are our initiatives, these are our values. Um, we remind people of core values. Every single meeting, every meeting. These are like the most important values that we have.
[00:29:25] So it's like. If you don't know what they
[00:29:27] David: so you, you're
[00:29:28] repeating, you're repeating yourself a lot,
[00:29:30] Todd: all the time. And yeah, I think like, like people need to hear things a lot, so I, I think it's, um, it's a big, big part of what we do. But, you know, at the town hall we don't just repeat the values. We tell stories how people live them. Every single town hall.
[00:29:46] Now, every town hall, you know, we have a system where you can essentially recognize any employee for living a value. We call those recognitions and I highlight one every other week about how someone looked, the value. And I, and I, and I, and it [00:30:00] also promotes people for recognizing other people because both names get a shout out at the town hall.
[00:30:04] Um, so that's a big part of our
[00:30:06] David: needs. How do you, how do you man at your scale, I've never been at your scale before, how do you manage this operating rhythm is who, who is in charge of, of this operating rhythm?
[00:30:18] Todd: Yeah, I think broadly speaking, um, I was at a dinner with a bunch of CEOs last night. I was talking about the exact thing. I'm a big believer in chief of staff and, uh, so my chief of staff generally runs the operating rhythm, uh, in cadence of the business, including all the planning and all the agendas for every meetings.
[00:30:36] Um, we also for, uh, the larger offsites bring in a, a, a third party facilitator we've had for probably six years at least. So most recently we used a table group, which is, uh, pat Lencioni, you know, five functions of a team. Uh, we bring in two facilitators for our big meetings that work with the chief of staff to like set the agenda and facilitate the meeting.
[00:30:58] So it's a serious production. [00:31:00] Um. But, you know, then the Pat Lin Group brings in the five dysfunctions framework, which if you haven't done, you know, um, we do team assessments every, every year annually to assess like health of the team. Um, every team has done personality analysis. We, um, to all those colors and wheels are shared with across everyone.
[00:31:22] So, and this has been happening for like, probably yeah, probably over six years. So like, like this is like a pretty core part of how we
[00:31:30] David: operate. Amazing. You know, I, I, um. I didn't do this for a while.
[00:31:37] And then we had an advisor, um, Alex Estevez, who used to be the CFO of Atlassian. Who? Alex, yeah. You know Alex, right? I think. And he, he told me like, we're gonna do an offsite, I will moderate, like, we're gonna do the annual planning. And then that started a new operating rhythm for the business off of that.
[00:31:55] And after we did it, that was years ago. I can't even [00:32:00] imagine how you would run a business actually without, I don't even know how you would tell people what to, what to do. You know? I used to just, me and the CFO would sit down, come up with a plan, and just kind of give it to everyone. As soon as we started doing that and people started holding each other accountable and checking each other's work and, you know, challenging each other and then going through the things you're not gonna do.
[00:32:21] Like it was, it was, it changed everything. Like
[00:32:25] Todd: Well, there's so many benefits to it. One of the things is, um, you know, because, because like, you know, it, it, the job's hard, like being a CEO of a company is difficult. And, and in order to keep your sanity, like I, I think this rhythm keeps my sanity because like I know that it's like a burning problem in the business, like.
[00:32:45] I'm gonna have a chance to talk about it pretty soon. I can look at the calendar and know exactly when I'm gonna talk about it, you know, you know, so we don't, I, I try not to like, host a lot of, like, unless it's a total emergency. Like unplanned, unscheduled meetings are very, very rare. [00:33:00] You know, like the cadence should help run the business.
[00:33:03] If something's unplanned, then, um, again, if it's an emergency, you have to do it. But we, we try to have very few of those because I just, I, and the good news, I can still sleep at night because I know it's gonna get covered like pretty darn soon. Like, this cadence, that cadence. Um, so I don't, I don't stress a lot about, oh, when are we gonna talk about this?
[00:33:21] Or, this burning thing won't get addressed. Like, everything gets addressed. So it always has like, like, so I think like that's been one of the positive, even when Covid hit, like it maybe it was fortunate at the timing. It was right around a planning. Like we, yeah, we tested our whole plan or like a lot of things changed.
[00:33:38] But it just was happened as a normal course of the business. We rolled it out just like we rolled out everything else. I didn't hold a special town hall like, like we were like very fortunate that the cadence just supported. Like moving quickly.
[00:33:51] David: And I think for the team, for them to have certainty that they will hear from you every other week. [00:34:00] Like there's a, some, someone told me that during Covid, actually to me, they said we need to have more regular meetings because it's just the certainty that I know that there's gonna be this meeting, I'm gonna be told what's happening.
[00:34:10] I'm gonna get a chance to ask questions. Like, so having the certainty, I I what you just described, I, I really, yeah. I push a lot of founders like to do this and it's a lot of work. Um, but it's, the payoff is, is huge and, and, um. Let me, so you have a, you have a chief of staff and an ea, is that
[00:34:31] Todd: Yeah. And, and the town halls are run by the EA team in general, so they collect all the content for it. So it's not even my EA but like another EA on the team will, will manage the town hall decks. So like that we have a pretty strong, like, yeah, look, we have great team here that knows, you know, they, they know what they're doing now and I think they help.
[00:34:50] And then, you know, we have, we bring in outside help like, like the table group we, we bring in. Now I brought in other consultants in the past, we've used different sets, different times, you know, and the other thing is, uh, be [00:35:00] unafraid to change it, you know? Um, we, we adapt it. Like, you know, one of the things we realized in our offsites is we, we didn't feel at one point we were spending enough time talking about long range, uh, ideas.
[00:35:10] So we now, once a year, it's actually our April planning. So I'm, I'm thinking about it now. It's about a month from now is, uh, we do a three year plan. You know, we, we look at three years we talk about, and then some of our, the new products we've launched. Like, it was literally three years ago, we decided to do it.
[00:35:25] Like we had ranked all of our top bets. We, we, we had a, you know, forecast amount of revenue from 'em, and we were like, we're gonna build this, and you start the process. And like, um, yeah, everything was pretty intentional. It's not like we randomly come up with it, but we went off site and we had this, and, and then, and then for that one, we, we actually go to the beach.
[00:35:42] It's one of the few times we actually go truly offsite. Now it's like kind of a no frills beach destination, but like, it's a great way to like, be in a different, different setting. And, um, my team always loves it. 'cause, you know, we kind of, we eat dinner at a house together. It's, it's, it's a little cozier than like, I [00:36:00] went to a restaurant or being in the office, but, uh, but I love it.
[00:36:02] And it is, yeah, again, that's another, like, just now part of the cadence where once a year we go to the beach, we talk about three year things. We kind of like have a, a longer horizon.
[00:36:12] David: Um, you, you started the company with two other founders?
[00:36:17] Todd: Three other
[00:36:17] David: Three other founders. Three other founders. One,
[00:36:19] Todd: Yeah.
[00:36:19] David: yeah.
[00:36:19] Todd: So three
[00:36:20] David: And you still still here? And, and, and they're all there.
[00:36:22] Todd: All there.
[00:36:23] David: Wow.
[00:36:24] Todd: Yeah.
[00:36:25] David: Yeah.
[00:36:25] Todd: there. And, and, and that is to say they'll always be there. I I, I think, you know, like 11 years is a long time, but, um, actually Rahul just took over as chief product Officer. So like, he, he now has the biggest role he's had since being here.
[00:36:38] And, and honestly he's doing a great job. And Eric's um, Eric actually had stepped out of like, day-to-day, you know, his TTO role and was focusing more as an ic. He's back in it. Um, for now, I don't know, like he, he, he may be wanting some, some change, um, at some point in the future, but he is doing a great job as well.
[00:36:56] So like, um, it, it is actually fun and, and [00:37:00] great to engage with the founding team again. And, and we're, we're, um, it feels a little bit like old
[00:37:05] David: old time. It's amazing. I mean it, that's pretty rare. I mean, 11 years is when you say it is a long time. It's an understatement, I would say. Uh, so like to have everyone there, um, is, is, is amazing.
[00:37:17] Um, I. Um, let, let's, uh, I, I wanna go to like, the biggest challenge that you've faced at Pendo. Um, I ask everyone this question, what is the biggest challenge you faced at Pendo and how did you overcome it if you did?
[00:37:35] Todd: Yeah, this is, this is an interesting one, you know, um, biggest, you know, um,
[00:37:42] look, I, I think the last few years is probably the biggest challenge now. I mean, I, I, I, I think, look, I mean, let's be really transparent and direct. I mean, a lot of companies like us at our size and scale sort of assume they'd be public by now. You know, we're all sort of this path. You had 2021 where you had just a ton of people [00:38:00] go public and, um, you had peak multiples happen in November of 2021 and everything started changing in 2022.
[00:38:09] So you hired executives who were sort of assuming some sort of outcome. You um, we switched from options to RSUs, sort of assuming that it would be like, oh, well this is like right around the corner. This is naturally what you're gonna do. We're on this path. There's just, there was a lot of change, a lot of dialogue.
[00:38:28] It was kind of like the assumption that this is gonna happen in the next, like exiting 2021. We, we thought it was imminent, like maybe in 2022, certainly early 2023. And here I'm talking to you in 2025 and it has not happened yet. Right. And I can tell you that is hard. It's a grind. And, um, now look, I'm not in this for some sort of short term win, or I wasn't looking to like, I'm not looking to go anywhere.
[00:38:54] Like I'm very, very happy. But I can tell you we've. Make a lot [00:39:00] of changes in the executive team who weren't signed up for that. They came in to get the company to this milestone event. Milestone event did not happen. And we have no, no visibility, what it's like. And I, and I would be, um, lying if I tried to put like an actual firm date, I could have some estimates around it.
[00:39:16] And, and right now, we would say sometime early next year, it's an estimate, but holy heck, like, I mean, shit, I mean, it's this week there's like tariffs going on. Interest rates may go up. I have no idea. Like, I can't predict whether it's gonna happen or not. I, I would be, uh, irresponsible to like, like definitively say something's gonna happen.
[00:39:34] And, and I can tell you that, that, um, in a world where a lot of companies were. Working towards some sort of like, liquidity event, exit event, something like that. And then to just not have any idea when it's gonna come and like, reframe how you lead to be. This isn't about getting to some like really next mile because there is no next milestone.
[00:39:53] We're actually generating cash now. So it's like, like there isn't, I don't need to like, a lot of it, remember you raise, raise, raise, raise. So it's like, [00:40:00] how do you, like, how do you do something to that next raise? There is no next raise for us necessarily. So like, like, like how do you inspire all these folks?
[00:40:09] Like how do you, um, motivate them? How do you unlock more out of them? You know? Um, uh, and then that combined with, we have all this conversation around AI and like AI's all hot and like, you know, I, I read over the weekend that SaaS is dead. You know, we obviously not only a SaaS company, but we sell a lot of SaaS companies, you know, so, so this is a crazy time.
[00:40:30] And I, I would say that it's, it's probably one of the most interesting times that we've had to lead in, um, probably the biggest challenge and I in, in. And so like, how did I, how do I, how am I dealing with, it's probably the better question than how did I deal with it? It's just, you know, I think it's going back to first principles going, leaning on my operating cadence, um, but also like being aggressive, you know, and, and, uh, being as direct as I can and, um, [00:41:00] yeah, trying to push the company and try to be bold.
[00:41:03] Like, like what can I, so how, how can I try to show up now is like, like I'm the one that we have to set a bar. This is the bar, it's high, but we're gonna try to hit it. And hitting it means we'll be, you know, benchmarked one of the best companies in our industry and, and that that's what we wanna be.
[00:41:19] Because, because if we're one of the best companies in industry, we'll have lots of options when the markets are open or, or et cetera. So, so, uh, but, but, but setting that high bar is, is, is hard because it's, it's very easy to come in short of, it still be growing really, really well. But you're coming in short of this bar you just said, I think, I think that's, to me, is.
[00:41:38] Yeah, that, that's probably the biggest challenge. Um, like the ultimate challenge. I dunno if that helps or not.
[00:41:43] David: it helps it. I mean it's, it, I think so many people actually are dealing with that in whatever, maybe it's not, there's not that many companies ready to go public like you, but there are companies that are growth stage companies that had that next fundraising or they thought they were gonna get acquired or, I mean, there's so [00:42:00] many of those conversations I've had and it's hard because you set some goalposts.
[00:42:05] Which made a lot of sense at the time. I'm talking about these other companies, and now it's like a, we were gonna fundraise and then all of a sudden there's no fundraising. And people start saying, well, well, wasn't that the goal? And you have to actually, I gotta take a step back and say, no, actually that wasn't the goal.
[00:42:20] The goal is to build a great business, but you kind of have to reframe the executive thing. I did not appreciate that until this all occurred of the expectations of people joining a company and saying, I'm gonna have some liquidity event in this period of time, and I'm planning my entire career and my life around it and everything.
[00:42:39] And like, and, and that's, um, that's hard. I, I can, I think being direct, being aggressive, all that is like the only way probably to, to deal with it, right? Yeah.
[00:42:52] Todd: And it, it, like, it is, it is a challenge, but, uh, um, but look it, like I also step back a lot. I [00:43:00] look at some of the iconic companies, the iconic SaaS company, software companies, you name it, that exist and like all of 'em are around for a really long time. So like, half the battle is just like staying in the game myself.
[00:43:13] Make sure I can construct my job, my life, my company in a way where I just wanna stay in it for as long as I can and keep it going. And obviously you don't wanna run a cash, things like that. So we're, we're, we're good there, but like, like, because we're still growing, as long as we're still growing, like, like, you know, we'll just keep staying at it.
[00:43:31] Like good things will happen. So, um, so yeah. But, but yeah, it's, it's a fascinating time to manage it. I think it's 'cause like for so many years, when we started our companies, it was all up into the right and it was pretty formulaic and everyone was following the same sort of playbook and path, and then the whole thing went away.
[00:43:50] David: Yep. Yep. What, um, where do you think, this is actually a good transition to this question. It's like, where, where is Pendo in three years? [00:44:00] You know, from a product perspective, community ai, like where, where is Pendo in three years?
[00:44:06] Todd: Yeah. Look, I, I, I think in, um. I think in three years, I think, look, I mean, I think we'll have probably established ourself as a leader in ai. I, I, I, I do think it's an area we're investing heavily in. I don't think we're as loud as we, we need to be yet, but I think we're still like, formulating some of the, the, the, the, the, the, the messaging around.
[00:44:27] But the truth is we're sitting on crazy amounts of data, all of which is incredibly valuable
[00:44:31] David: I mean, do you have, I don't even, you must have treasure trove of Yeah.
[00:44:35] Todd: like, like 20 trillion like pieces of data, like, like about products and things like that. So just crazy amounts of data. So like, I, I think, I think that's an area that in three years I think will be a meaningful player, um, in that market. I, I think we'll be, um. I'd like to think by that time that we'll have a bulk of the Fortune 500 using us.
[00:44:56] Right now, that number is probably a little less than 15%, but I [00:45:00] think, uh, I think in three years that we're gonna have a significant percentage of the Fortune 500 using it. And we're already starting to see like large, traditional businesses using App Pendo. And it's, it is following this whole, like every company's that software company.
[00:45:10] So every company's gonna need something like App Pendo to help make their software better and, and improve the experience. So I think that's a big piece. I think international in three years should be a much higher percentage. Again, that's something that's sort of like less than 15%. But, um, uh, I, I, uh, we have some amazing customers internationally.
[00:45:28] We, we have, uh, we've had new leadership in Japan who's killing it. We have, uh, we just got a new leadership in Australia. Very excited. We have a new team in, in Munich. Excited about that. I, I think we're making significant investments internationally with team covering latam for the first time. Like very excited about what they're doing in Brazil and other places like.
[00:45:47] I, I think we have a huge international opportunity, and I think it's, I think we'll see in three years. Yeah, I think a significant difference in how we think about the business internationally. Um, and then product wise. Yeah, I, I think, um, [00:46:00] aside from the AI I pieces and, and I, I'd like to think by then that, um, you know, in, in a world where nearly every role, certainly every knowledge worker role has some sort of agent, I'd like to think that Pendo is providing an agent to the world to help product managers do their job better.
[00:46:18] Yeah. I think in three years we should probably be there, uh, if not sooner, but I think that that'll be, um, uh, a great area for us. So I think, yeah, those, those are probably the, the big ones. Um,
[00:46:29] David: at some level you could basically tell people how to design their product. I mean, you basic, right? I mean, I assume you basically have enough data to tell people this is how to design an employee application that has the most engagement and has the e you know, like you have, you have so much information
[00:46:47] Todd: and, and we've been expanding it, we've been capturing qualitative data too. Yeah. I think there's just so much opportunity here. So I, I, I think, uh, yeah, I think in three years, yeah, I think we'll be, we'll have a meaningful solution in that, that [00:47:00] space.
[00:47:00] David: So I want to transition to your background a little bit more.
[00:47:02] I, I actually didn't know that you started working at 14. Um, why did you, I mean, can you just extrapolate I,
[00:47:11] Todd: think I, you know, honestly, I, I, uh, there's no good reason other than I, I was probably bored and wanted to do something and, and I love computers. Like, I just, at the end of the day, I love computers and, and, um, I got an opportunity to get a job using computers, and it's like a dream come true. You know, I, I, I think I fell in love with technology at an early early age, Were you still.
[00:47:30] David: in school and this was like your,
[00:47:31] Todd: yeah, I did get like a work permit and my parents had to sign off on it, and I worked for full-time in the summers. And then, um, every day after school, I would go to the bank, I'd, I'd, I'd actually pack a suit every single day. I'd wear a suit every single day. Um, for years from, uh, sophomore year in high school all the way through my senior year.
[00:47:50] And then I, I even brought a laptop to college and consulted and then came back every break. So, um, um, yeah, for years I thought I was gonna work in banking [00:48:00] and then, um, you know, I, I wasn't exposed as much to entrepreneurship. Once I got exposed to entrepreneurship my senior year in college, I, I was like, okay, that's really what I need to be doing.
[00:48:09] But, um, uh, but yeah, no, I, I, um, I loved it. I, I, I loved every minute of it, so,
[00:48:15] David: So, and your parents, they were support, they were cool with it. They were,
[00:48:19] Todd: they were
[00:48:19] they were, super supportive. I,
[00:48:21] I didn't
[00:48:22] go.
[00:48:23] They
[00:48:24] complained that they didn't really have much of a childhood because like,
[00:48:26] like by the time I was 14, my best friends were like 26 year olds at a bank.
[00:48:30] You know,
[00:48:30] like, so like I, I,
[00:48:32] I did sort of like skip some of the typical
[00:48:35] high school things, you know, I, I, um,
[00:48:39] um, because I was working like every minute I could and, and I was making good amounts of money, so I loved it.
[00:48:45] Um, but but yeah, no, I, I, um, they were very, very supportive. So,
[00:48:49] David: and where does that entrepreneurial, what did you experience senior year that, that you, that sparked that?
[00:48:57] Todd: well, I think, well, so when I started working at [00:49:00] Bank in it, so this is like, go back, this is like 1989, so like, like, like, you know, dating myself, maybe 19 90, 89 is the year I first started working. So, um, but this was starting it at a bank and it was a startup. Now, I didn't know that then because I know what startup was, but like, very much like talk to customer, build thing for customer, iterate, you know, and I loved every minute of it.
[00:49:22] Now by the time I was getting, you know, into college with this, I, you know, it, now I come into the bank and there's like a manual this thick of like how I talk to customers, how I iterate to customers. I was like, whoa, this wasn't like, it was when I first started. And so I, I think I, um, once I saw how like a real bank worked with like regulated industries, um, I, I like, well that, that, that wasn't what I loved about this job.
[00:49:48] So I got exposed to a friend at Carnegie Mellon and he was starting, you know, sort of a consulting business to start. And this was the early days of the internet. Um, this would've been sort of 19. 96, [00:50:00] 19 97 when Mosaic and, and web browsers were coming out. And now I have all this experience working with data and databases, you know, from working at a bank and like real production systems.
[00:50:10] So it's like taking my knowledge and experience building real systems for a real organization and then trying to mix it and marry it with web technologies. This is pre-app server days, you know, this is like, you know, very, very interesting tech. And, um, so we are like, wow, there's a business here, there's something here.
[00:50:27] Like, like big companies have no idea how to use the internet. And I had a lot of experience working at big companies. So it's like, I think the combo of the two is what led to the first business and, um, started consulting, but then we, we sort of came up with the idea of a product and, um, then raised, um, some, some friends and family capital and then, you know, started, started building a product org and that's when I first first got my bid, like sort of like building a product from scratch and, um.
[00:50:57] Yeah. Fun. Well, once you do it, you [00:51:00] know, I, I think one of those things is like, I, I would've never sort of predicted this thing for me when I, because I, I worked at a bank, I thought I would like, you know, get promoted to be a vice president, some bank, and have a picket fence and et cetera, et cetera. And, and then I'm like in a basement, you know, drinking Mountain Dew until four in the morning, you know, try to like, build my product, you know, um, very different life.
[00:51:21] But I was sort of addicted to the building and like the, um, like it felt unlimited, still feels unlimited to some degree. You know, like, like I could work nearly unlimited hours and I still feel like I'd be productive. And I love that aspect of it, you know, I, I, I think, I think that's what sort of motivates me now.
[00:51:43] David: do you, did you have a role model or a mentor, you know, throughout your career? Did you have a person or couple people who you, who really helped you?
[00:51:53] Todd: Look, I think in the very early days, I was in my twenties, uh, at, at, I was at Carnegie Mellon. We, one of my professors, [00:52:00] um, Jack Roseman was on our board and, and, and he taught at CMU entrepreneurship. So, so I think he was definitely, um, an early mentor, you know, and for years, until he passed away, I'd still, you know, try to get lunch with him.
[00:52:13] I went to Pittsburgh and like just the funniest guy, the best stories, and, and he, he taught me some of like the, um, things I still to this day would, would say, you know, uh, you know, he, he talks about, uh, how a software developer has wanted to be a. He wanted to be his assistant as CEO. So he is like, you know, I'm in a business card assistant to the CEO because titles are free.
[00:52:36] And, and you'll hear me now today, like titles are free. Like I don't care what you call someone, like, I don't like, like, uh, I think people get over rotate. So big companies care a lot about titles, but small companies, whatever, man, I'll pull whatever you want in your business card. I could care less. So, um, so I, I got that from him.
[00:52:51] Um, I had another, I, I joined a company here. Uh, the, the company moved me to, to Raleigh, was a startup called Together Soft And um, [00:53:00] crazy story. I won't get into all the details, it's really, really crazy ride. Um, but I worked for a guy there Au Rollick who worked at like Cray supercomputer, like very Silicon Valley connected guy.
[00:53:12] And, um. Yeah, great mentor. He's the one, he's the one that really like, you know, one of my also current adages is, and he, I, I got this right from him, is like, you know, as a software company, we do two things and two things only. We build software and we sell it. If you don't build software or sell it, you are helping someone else who is, and that is what we do.
[00:53:33] That is our core business. And I think about that a lot. That's, again, that first principle's thinking. Um, so I learned that from Beau, but, um, yeah, like those are like, like some of my like yeah. Best top of mind mentors, so,
[00:53:46] David: the, the, I have just two more questions. The, you've built the business in Raleigh.
[00:53:52] Todd: yep.
[00:53:53] David: Yep. How has that, like, did you ever, did an investor ever tell you you have to move to Silicon Valley [00:54:00] or you like, how, how was it to build? You must be the largest, are you the largest SaaS company in Uh, yeah. You have to be, I assume.
[00:54:08] Yeah. Um, like how was it to build in a market like that?
[00:54:12] Todd: Yeah, look, it was challenging. And yes, we did have several investors early on and, and, and there, there's actually only one moment, like one dark moment where I went home to my wife and I'm like, damn, maybe we should move. Like, like, it would be so much easier. I, I, um, I, uh, I, I joke 'cause we, we raised like just, um, our, our first round, like 1.25 million C which everyone's like, whoa, that's tiny.
[00:54:34] Today's standards are tiny. Um, and that got us about a year and a month or so. And, and, uh, we weren't quite an a ready And, uh, I was raising, raising, raising. I remember, I'll never forget, I, like one Christmas, my, my wife's family's in New Jersey. I, I took like a train from Princeton to Penn Station, like went to a diner, spent four hours with a vc, got the [00:55:00] train, went back, I think a sinus infection.
[00:55:01] I felt terrible. Um. Three days later, he passed like I almo like, and he, and everything was good. And I was like, I was stressed. I was like, I cannot believe we cannot do this. So I took an inside round then. And um, now our investors after that say, is one of the greatest deals in venture history inside round, because now look, from my perspective, I needed the money.
[00:55:24] Uh, I need the money. So, uh, uh, so I, I think it was a fair deal. So I don't, I, I, I'm not the kind of person that regrets things like that, but, um, but I think that gave me the breathing room to, to, to really just get over that hump to those early customers, which then led to a, from battery and then, then the rest we sort of took off from there.
[00:55:44] But yeah, I, I, look, I think it was hard. Very, very hard. And, and I think one of the things that, um, if you compare us to other Raleigh startups, one of the things we've done more than anyone here is we have been willing to hire people outside of Raleigh. In particular for [00:56:00] executive roles. So while the bulk of the people are here, so the roughly 900 people, about 400 are here.
[00:56:06] So like, yeah, like this is the center of gravity for the company. Like if you wanna know Pendo, you come visit Raleigh, you don't go anywhere else. Um, but my directs have always been sort of in different locales and because I've, I've really focused on people that fit the culture better and not worried as much about geo knowing that the right person would travel to Raleigh when we needed them to.
[00:56:27] And that that's always sort of worked out. And the companies here that fail to like break out are the ones that are only limiting themselves to local talent. And I, and I think, um, the reality is if you want someone that's been there, done that for a series B company, it's very rare they're here now. Look, I'm trying to change that.
[00:56:46] We have a lot of talent here that's done amazing things. We will change that, but um. But yeah, that it's been hard. That was the harder, harder point, but, uh, yeah, yeah,
[00:56:59] David: In the [00:57:00] past when we've met and we've talked, I mean, um, I think I have a good work ethic.
[00:57:04] I think you're kind of at a different level, even maybe, um, always on the road, always. You know, you have people all over the world, you have all that stuff. Um, how have you balanced your family and a growing family? You know, kind of that, do you expose them to the business? Do they come to the office? Do you Yeah.
[00:57:21] Do, like, how do you balance that
[00:57:23] Todd: and let's be honest
[00:57:24] there isn't a balance. So, you know, there isn't, I, I, um, but I, I think the, the right question is, is my wife happy? Are my kids happy? And am I happy? Yeah. I think we're all, ha, we're always happy. As I, I talk to my wife all the time about it. I, I always tell her like, look, I, at some level, I feel like I can always work more than I can.
[00:57:43] And I, and I'm a little bit stressed that I'm not working harder and. And, and I could be a better father and partner. I could definitely be better at both. Like I'm bad at both in many regards. Like I, I read about Bill Gates going to like the woods for a week, you know, and just [00:58:00] working like, I don't do that, you know, and that would be an intense week.
[00:58:03] And, and, but I, I, I don't know. I never prioritize that, but, you know, um, look, I think, um, we do try to integrate our family. I have six kids, um, you know, and some are older and, and I have some that are younger. Like, I, like every end of quarter, every end of quarter, all of generally, all my kids, all the kids are here.
[00:58:23] I have one in college, they come into the office. They have pizza with me. I'm usually at the, at the office till 10, 10 30 at night. But they come in and they, we celebrate the inter tour together. Like, they're ringing the gong, they're hearing the gong. Like, yeah, I don't think there's ever been one where they haven't come into the office.
[00:58:38] So like, uh, and, and, um. In, in my family this last year, I was really concerned around Europe, so I moved my family to Europe for the summer. So we lived there for eight weeks. Uh, of course we landed immediately started taking off and visiting other countries. And I like, I felt a little bit bad. I didn't, me and my wife didn't have any friends there, like she was told [00:59:00] trying to figure out camps for every, but like, she's a trooper and we figured it out and like we made some good memories out of that situation.
[00:59:06] But, but I think we did celebrate end court there, which was pretty memorable and all the kids were in and had a great time. And, and the funny thing is the kids are like, dad just feels familiar. Why? Because the same vibe was just in London. Yeah. And it's funny how even they can feel it, it like, and that was like probably a 6-year-old or the 8-year-old saying it.
[00:59:23] Um, but it felt like home. It felt like home being in the London office for a quarter, which is, which is kind of cool. Um, we have a president's club for our sales. Like I bring my family every year and I. You know, it's sometimes a little stressful to bring your kids on a, like, like a trip like that. But, um, because we also have to bring help to like watch them while I go to like various dinners and things like that.
[00:59:46] But it means that all of 'em are asking about the number. They're all saying, how are we doing this year? Like, where's Trek gonna be, you know, which is the name of our president's club? Like, they care, you know. Um, so I think the business is, [01:00:00] is, is is really part of their life, you know, right or wrong. That's the way it is.
[01:00:04] And um, the other thing that we do, and I think this is something unique, um, about Pendo, that that, um, I don't think it happens to a lot of the companies is a lot of people do come to my house. So I've had, uh, after. You know, board dinners. We have a, you know, group of board members that come back and have a glass of wine.
[01:00:21] They spend time with my wife. Um, uh, at kickoff I'll bring back like a group of people to my house. Like, like most people have probably been to my home. Um, you know, spent real time with my family. Uh, it, it's probably like a tradition of being here, like coming to Raleigh and, and, and it's a way that I can be at home that night, you know, and, and my kids are hanging around and they're interacting with other executives or other people at the business.
[01:00:45] So like, that's a very frequent thing that happens to now. Everyone apologizes. Sometimes we do show up like a little tipsy at like 10:00 PM and all my kids are in bed and my wife, you know, comes down from there. But she's a trooper. And, you know, I [01:01:00] think, you know, look, you know, I have a supportive system around me that, um, that enables me
[01:01:06] David: well without, I tell my wife all the time without her, can't do, I couldn't do it.
[01:01:11] I literally, I don't, I, I actually, I think most people I've interviewed, there's some partner or some, you know, somebody who enables them because you, I don't think you can build a business like you've done it without being maniacally folk, forget the, you know, yes. On the customer, but on, on the business, you know, and that just takes like a different level of work and sacrifice or whatever you want to call it, you know, um, that,
[01:01:38] Todd: Yeah. It doesn't mean you don't have hard conversations. Yeah. There's times when she is like, this is non-negotiable for me. You gotta do this, you gotta show up. Or, um, like, I'm not saying as Roy all the time, I mean, we, we need to schedule date nights just like every other couple does. And like, there's times when I'm traveling three or four weeks in a row, like there was a time where every Sunday I was traveling, like I was gone every single [01:02:00] Sunday.
[01:02:00] Like it, uh, look it, that's tough, you know, but like, you find a way to like balance it out and, and, uh, do the best you can. And, um. So it is not, there's no perfect science here, but, but, uh, uh, you, I, I do my best. And, and, um, but, and I think you know this as well, this is the other thing that I don't dunno if it's often said, even when I'm not working and I'm at home watching my kids, it's hard to get work outta my brain.
[01:02:27] And sometimes my wife will look at me, she's like, you're thinking about something completely different, aren't you? Like, even though I'm playing with a 2-year-old, you know, there's no question that my brain is like ruminating over some, like, challenge we've had or some people issue or, yeah. Like I cannot even, I wanted to remove it from my head.
[01:02:45] I can't. So that's the, that's just the truth of it. And, and like, I'm not gonna be dishonest and lie about it. So, yeah.
[01:02:55] David: Last question. Knowing everything you know today, your entire career, [01:03:00] storied career, if you could go back and give yourself one piece of advice, I guess, when you were 14, before you fir started your first job.
[01:03:07] I don't, I always ask people before they started their first job, but at 14, I'm not sure, but if you could go back and give yourself one piece of advice, what would it be?
[01:03:13] Todd: You know, I think the thing that I'm not great at and, and, and, and I'm better now is just enjoy it. Enjoy the journey. Like, uh, so often you can obsess over the next milestone. You can be really down on yourself when you don't, when you come up a little bit short. But like, when things are going well and, um, you're executing well, like, like, take the time to enjoy it, celebrate it, and like appreciate what you've got.
[01:03:35] So, uh, so few people appreciate what they've got and, um, sometimes it takes leaving a situation and going to another session really realizing how good you had it, when, when you, when you have it. But, um. Yeah, I think back to some of these moments of my career and just like really saying like, this is awesome.
[01:03:54] Like, I'm really thankful to be here. I'm really, really fortunate to be in this situation. Yeah. It's to helped create this [01:04:00] situation, but I think appreciating the journey, I probably don't do it enough. Like, and, and I, when I do it. Yeah. It's, it, it helps.
[01:04:08] David: Todd, thank you. This was, I appreciate the transparency, the directness and the lessons.
[01:04:16] I, I really think this, um. There's a lot that people can learn from this. So thank you, thank you for doing this with me. Pleasure. My
[01:04:23] Todd: Anytime
[01:04:23] David: pleasure. Yeah, anytime, Jay. Awesome. Thank you everyone. Hope you enjoyed, um, please share with your networks, the, the, the episode and we'll see you for the next episode, not another co podcast.
