What does it take to build and scale a successful company? In this episode of Not Another CEO Podcast, David Politis sits down with Zac Smith, Co-Founder and Former CEO of Packet.
Zac discusses the importance of structured execution, hiring for passion, and balancing long-term vision with short-term execution. Whether you're a founder, leader, or aspiring entrepreneur, this conversation is packed with valuable insights on leadership, company building, and decision-making.
Takeaways:
The Power of a 10-Year Vision: Zac believes that thinking long-term is critical for building meaningful businesses. He explains how setting a bold 10-year goal helps guide decision-making and prioritization in the short term.
Entrepreneurial Operating System (EOS) for Success: One of Zac’s most impactful lessons was implementing EOS to create structure and accountability within his companies. He shares how this system helped him move from gut-driven decisions to a scalable business framework.
Execution is the Differentiator: Most companies operate at a 3 or 4 out of 10 in execution. Zac explains how simply executing at a 7 or 8 puts businesses ahead of the competition and increases the likelihood of success.
Hiring for Passion & Curiosity: Beyond skills, Zac prioritizes candidates who show genuine interest and curiosity. He shares how small actions, like trying a product before an interview, can reveal whether someone is truly invested in a company’s mission.
Lessons from Leading Through Crisis: From navigating financial challenges to making tough leadership decisions, Zac reflects on some of the hardest moments of his career, including when he and his co-founder decided to replace themselves as leaders to save the company.
Building a Personal Brand in B2B Sales: In enterprise sales, people buy from people, not just companies. Zac shares how investing in personal brand-building—through speaking, blogging, and community engagement—was key to winning customers at Packet.
Quote of the Show:
“ I don’t need to run a 10 out of 10 for a company. Most companies are operating at a 3 or a 4. I just want to be a 7 or an 8.” - Zac Smith
Links:
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/zsmith
Ways to Tune In:
Spotify:
Apple Podcasts:
Amazon Music: https://music.amazon.com/podcasts/7c6328f0-9b42-41db-8fe2-d263b4fbb261
Transistor: https://podcast.notanotherceo.com/
#NotAnotherCEO #BusinessSuccess #Packet
Chapters:
0:00 Intro
1:25 What You’d Do Again As CEO
3:18 Deep Dive into EOS and Its Benefits
7:41 Building a Passionate and Accountable Team
9:50 The Importance of Vision and Long-Term Goals
13:20 Effective Interview Techniques and Identifying Passion
19:57 Communicating Vision and Values
29:33 Go-to-Market Strategies and Early Customer Acquisition
34:38 Early Users and Initial Challenges
39:22 New York Tech Scene Evolution
45:25 Biggest Challenge Faced
51:41 Rich’s Background
1:05:49 Advice to Younger Self
1:02:21 Outro
Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Zac: I don't need to run a 10 out of 10 for a company. Most companies are operating at a 3 or a 4. I just want to be a 7 or an 8. And if I can judge myself and kind of continually work towards really better than average, like then, with the right ideas, and the right timing, the right vision, you can actually win in the marketplace.
[00:00:44] David: Today's guest is a serial entrepreneur who is one of the OGs in the New York enterprise tech ecosystem. He's a visionary in the world of cloud infrastructure. His last company, Packit, pioneered the edge computing movement, ultimately leading to its acquisition by [00:01:00] Equinix in 2020 for over 300 million. He serves on a number of boards and he's also in the process of incubating a number of companies. addition to his work as an entrepreneur. He's actively involved in nonprofit initiatives focused on technology access and innovation. welcome Zach Smith.
[00:01:19] Zac: Oh, thanks so much for having me, David.
[00:01:21] David: I'm excited for this. Let's jump right into the first, first question. So what's the one thing you've done, big or small, At the various companies that you've been CEO of, um, that you would absolutely do again in the future. That, that really had the biggest impact on those companies.
[00:01:37] Zac: No softball questions to start it off, man. Well, I've been,
[00:01:40] David: it. We go
[00:01:41] Zac: you go right into the jugular. well, uh, I've been, I've been fortunate enough to have, uh, uh, been involved in a bunch of companies and managed to survive, Through about 25 years of entrepreneurship. So needless to say, I've made a ton of mistakes.
[00:01:55] Um, along with it, I've made a couple of good choices or maybe [00:02:00] happened into some of them. And, you know, the one that I'm most thankful for over my entrepreneurial journey is actually. Reading at the behest of my twin brother, who was annoyingly pushing me to not just use my gut in running a company, but actually to take a purposeful approach and use a system.
[00:02:20] Um, in 2014, uh, when we started a company called Packit, uh, we used what was called Entrepreneurial Operating System, EOS, and it was a framework for how we could build a better company, um, versus just build a better product or, you know, have the right timing in the market. And, and for me, if I could go back, um, I look at all the challenges and problems and missed opportunities I had.
[00:02:46] Um, you know, various businesses, and that would be the single biggest thing I would do is go back to younger Zach and be like, dude, there's probably people who have run businesses before. Maybe you should see how they do that. Um, and try [00:03:00] one of those versus, you know, um, stumbling around in the dark and trying to figure out how to run a company.
[00:03:05] Um, so for me, E. O. S. Was just a total game changer in organizing my thoughts and taking a lot of things that were Kind of native or felt, you know, Oh, that feels good. Or that, you know, worked and turning it into more of a system.
[00:03:18] David: And can you, for people who don't know what EOS is, can you maybe go a little bit deeper into, is that just a set of meetings that you're supposed to have on some case, like what, what, what is that?
[00:03:29] Zac: Yeah, so EOS, um, you know, you could apply it to all kinds of businesses, but I think it's mainly, you know, most useful for smaller companies, um, that don't have a whole bunch of scaffolding. And so it starts with this kind of concept that you have to understand your, what's called your vision traction organizer.
[00:03:45] What's your purpose for existing? What are your values? Um, what do you do the best in the world, um, and what's your kind of, um, elevator pitch or mission statement that you could repeat. And writing that down on a one pager, which you often kind of skip to or [00:04:00] maybe you're in the process of figuring out but you haven't written down, is really good practice to start to gel around core values for a company.
[00:04:07] Um, it then has a set of what's called a toolkit, which is, you know, how do you have accountability? Not who does what, but who's accountable for what. So it helps you form a leadership team. Um, and then, um, uh, running a process around, kind of, Quarterly, uh, what they call ROCKS, which is, you know, do the big stuff first, not the little stuff.
[00:04:27] So you can make sure you absolutely accomplish the most important stuff at the expense of other things. Um, very important for a busy early business. Um, and then annual, three year, you know, ten year kind of goals. Writing those down, changing them, and then how to measure your business. So you're going along the path every week, you get together, you have a meeting every day.
[00:04:47] You know, what are you looking at? Are we on track? Are we off track? Where are we going to help? So, it's just kind of a toolkit around that. Um, and then instituting some kind of processes around how to run a meeting so you don't just have [00:05:00] meetings that go on and turn into arguments about feelings. Um, I had a great coach who helped me along this and he says, Remember, meetings are for getting stuff done and feelings are for the bar.
[00:05:11] So, you have a lot of feelings about that issue, but you have all the information to solve it and if not, like, Stop talking about it and, you know, go get the information to come back and do something about it. Um, but you can get into kind of emotional rat holes. Um, and so just helping to keep on track there and give you some discipline because let's face it, Dave, like building companies is busy.
[00:05:36] Um, and there's a lot going on. Um, and so if you can have a system to help keep you on track. Um, you know, the goal that, that, that, that I've always tried to do is I don't need to run a 10 out of 10 for a company. Most companies are operating at a 3 or a 4. I just want to be a 7 or an 8. And if I can judge myself and kind of continually work towards really better than average, like then, with the right ideas, [00:06:00] and the right timing, the right vision, you can actually win in the marketplace.
[00:06:03] 100%.
[00:06:08] David: at a 3 or 4 out of 10. I think that is, I want to, like, that is so important. Actually, I think most people, they think we have to do better with the product or with the this. Actually, at some level, you can just, like, just alone, just as execution is a differentiator for a business and for most, to your point, most are actually running below average,
[00:06:33] Zac: If you look at what's the number, like statistically the number of new businesses that fail within the first three to five years, you know, a lot of this doesn't have to do with the wrong market or the wrong timing. it has to do with just bad execution. And, you can overcome a lot if you have a, If you're in the right place at the right time, and some people get really, really lucky,
[00:06:54] and can even succeed, in spite of bad execution.
[00:06:59] But, [00:07:00] I don't think that's the rule, man. I think that the vast majority of businesses, when you look under the hood, and you look at a company that you respect from the outside, and you peel it, and you've, done interviews with probably dozens or hundreds of people, Like, They got a method to their madness.
[00:07:13] They're good at executing, which, might not just mean producing a product or servicing a customer. It might be making sure you hire the right people, making sure that you're pointed in the right direction, making sure that you know how to make decisions or, deal with issues. These things are not sexy, but if you can get the mechanics of how to work as an organization to be, you know, pretty good or great, you know, I think that gives you a lot better chances at succeeding.
[00:07:41] David: Do you, um, if you were starting a new company from scratch, would, is, is EOS something you put in place day one? Is, is that like, it's something from day one?
[00:07:52] Zac: Yeah, probably day zero. Um, which, uh, you know, it's hard to kind of balance the [00:08:00] concept of structure, um, with the, and I come from a background of having some time in the arts. How do you have structure? with free thinking and creativity. And so it is something that you have to kind of, you know, um, meld in your own mind that, Hey, I'm going to think openly and I'm going to be open to new ideas.
[00:08:20] And I'm going to be, you know, white space. A great part about starting a new company is you have literally, a friend of mine said once, you know, early in the days of packet, we had no money and no customers and, you know, barely anything that worked. And he's like, you're so lucky. I'm like, what do you mean?
[00:08:36] And he says, Well, this is the only time in your company's life where you get to spend 99 percent of your, your, your mental energy thinking about the future because you have no past, you have no customers,
[00:08:50] David: it's
[00:08:50] Zac: don't have no bills, you'd have no vendors, you'd have to deal with, you don't have a hiring, firing, you got nothing, which is amazing because it will go away.
[00:08:56] And so how do you balance that kind of vision forward, [00:09:00] optimistic thinking with some structure that allows you to like. work off of a playbook. And so EOS for me is a good one. I don't think it's perfect. I don't think it actually matters. I think there's a lot of great business strategies on how to run companies.
[00:09:13] I didn't go to business school or anything else like that. I went to the hard, hard knocks of entrepreneurial life school. Um, but you know, having some kind of system that you work off of, so that way you can improve it, right? So that way you have something to judge yourself off of versus it's working or it's not working, which is I think super subjective.
[00:09:31] David: So one of the things you mentioned in this EOS a couple times now is like the team
[00:09:36] Zac: Hmm.
[00:09:37] David: the team. Um, where do you start for some, like, I want to talk about kind of early stage as you think about building the team, like what are you looking for when, when you start that process?
[00:09:50] Zac: Yeah, for me, I've always worked around vision. I'm a very mission oriented human. Um, I don't start a business thinking, you know, what I want to do is make x unit economics and where [00:10:00] could I do that? Or I, you know, I'm looking to build a Y kind of revenue company. So what industry is best for that? I get passionate about ideas.
[00:10:08] I'm a, you know, person who just loves to solve problems. And so I kind of identify humans around me that have similar Vision or, or, or passion for those same areas, um, because I think you can learn skills. I think you can learn about things, and I've usually played in technology ecosystems where, um, you know, what is it?
[00:10:29] The job application must have five years experience on chat GPT or don't apply, you know, like, like, It's all new, right? And I'm kind of counting that most things are changing rapidly. And so I'm less concerned about, you know, you have tons of experience in this area as much as you're super passionate about it and want to learn.
[00:10:49] And then we can go on that journey together. Cause you know, we're, I like to uncover, I think businesses when you're starting them, you know, you have to have a kernel of a really, really, really big idea that you want to go and [00:11:00] spend maybe 10 or 20 years working on. And, um, I don't think there's anything quick about entrepreneurship.
[00:11:06] And so, um, if you can have something that's, you know, juicy enough and big and you can identify a small team around you, then you can either figure out, you know, who are the right folks that need to be on the boat or is this one a bit of business with. And then, you know, at least this is something that I've, I've worked off of is You gotta build the right team.
[00:11:26] How do you do that? Right? So, okay, like we, we, we, we got this idea. We want to work on this major, huge, you know, multi, you know, year or decade problem set. I've got some of the people who are so passionate and committed around that. Now, what do we actually need to do to be successful? And that is about forming accountability.
[00:11:45] And mostly, if you've got the right value system where people are there for the right reasons, Yeah. Um, Which is important. Uh, you can't get anything done if people are there for the wrong reasons, right? Um, so if they're there for the right reasons, then you [00:12:00] can start to say accountability. Like, who's going to cover what?
[00:12:03] So that we don't have to all do everything. I learned this in my very first company when I kind of went from that, you know, 10, 15 people. where everybody knew what was going on. You're all just kind of showing up, working hard, figuring out an idea. Everybody's got like the same, you know, kind of brainwave, you know, you're finishing each other's sentences, you know, it's magical, right?
[00:12:25] It's awesome.
[00:12:26] David: it is magical.
[00:12:28] Zac: and then you get to like 30 or 40 people and suddenly it gets a little bit creaky and hard. And then like, I remember we hit like 80 or a hundred people and suddenly everything broke because we were counting on this kind of tribal understanding. And. Who does what? Or why would we do that?
[00:12:44] Um, and suddenly you're spending all your time explaining this. Um, and so for me that that's where I've leaned on EOS is like accountability and clarity just helps an organization grow. And if you do at the beginning, it's a muscle that is supernatural. If you try and [00:13:00] inject it later, you've got all these bad habits.
[00:13:02] Of like, Oh no, but you know, Dave and I always like hang out and chat for 19 hours a day and you know, now we know what's going on. Like that, that doesn't work like over time. Um, and so for me, that, that kind of foundation of accountability, um, and clarity of vision and purpose and values is, is like the number one thing.
[00:13:20] David: Let me ask, so when we talk about passion,
[00:13:22] Zac: Yeah.
[00:13:23] David: how do you identify that the person has the passion for what you're doing?
[00:13:29] Zac: Yeah.
[00:13:30] David: do you really, because I don't know, but knowing you, you can go sell that big vision. People are going to get excited, even if they're not really passionate, you're going to get them passionate.
[00:13:41] Like, how do you check that? How do you test that in the interview process? How do you test
[00:13:46] Zac: Yeah. Well, um, it's easier when you have maybe a little bit of a, or maybe a community, um, or a constituency. I've done a lot of interviews in my life and, um, [00:14:00] interviewing somebody who says, you know, I'm super interested. I love this thing. Uh, I want to be part of it. And then you go and you like check out your free to sign up cloud platform and they've never signed up.
[00:14:11] I'm like, Oh, really? Are you like, you haven't tried it yet. Um, and it's super free or like not hard.
[00:14:20] David: Right,
[00:14:20] Zac: here, really wanting to be part of this thing, I would expect that you might have tried it.
[00:14:26] David: Yeah.
[00:14:28] Zac: be a very easy litmus
[00:14:30] test. I won't hire anybody who hadn't tried. Like even senior executives are like, no, I'm not technical.
[00:14:35] I'm like, I don't know. Like, that's why we have good docs, right? Like, you know, like that would be a very valuable piece of feedback. Um, or, uh, you know, open source is a great way to see that contributing in your community, participating, trying your product or participating. These are like cheat sheets, you know, because they really like show when I, when I mentor young, um, people trying to get into new careers as like, just, you know, Just [00:15:00] participate.
[00:15:00] Just try. Just, you know, like, it's easier to be authentic about being passionate about something than it is to pretend to be. passionate about something, right? Um, first off, you'll probably get found out. And second of off, like, you know, it's usually pretty free and cheap these days to participate and try, um, in most companies, products, organizations or whatnot.
[00:15:20] Now that's not exclusive. That doesn't work everywhere. Um, for example, if you don't have a product yet, or maybe you don't have anything that people can participate in, how would you see that? And for me, um, it's generally about curiosity. I want to see if people have questions, if they want to know more.
[00:15:41] certainly I can pitch people on why they should be. I'm excited about it. Let me tell you all about it. Questions like, how many questions do you ask about it? Like, what do you learn? Do you come back with like, but tell me more, you know? And that, will, the same thing I do with my teenagers, you know, be inquisitive, right?
[00:15:59] Don't just [00:16:00] like put it in your head. I want to know what, kind of questions do you have? And so my general interview format, which I'm super bad at interviews, is half the interview I'm asking questions and the other half I try to shut up and just be like, what questions do you have for me? Like, what about the company?
[00:16:15] What about the people? What about the stuff? What about we do? I want you to ask me questions. You can tell a lot by the questions people ask.
[00:16:20] David: There's a couple things you said there. First of all, I had my first job ever. Um, one of the founders of the company. I remember I was interviewing for, to hire someone.
[00:16:29] Zac: Mm.
[00:16:30] David: And he went in to do, I did the interview. And I said, Oh, that person seemed pretty good. They seemed like they could, it was a marketing job. And then he went into the interview. I'll never forget this. said, okay, here's the deal. I gave him the background and he walked in and no joke. It was like three minutes later, he walked out
[00:16:46] Zac: Mm.
[00:16:46] David: the candidate walked out. I said, what,
[00:16:49] What
[00:16:49] Zac: happened?
[00:16:50] David: He said, he said, I asked them, what do you think we should change on the website?
[00:16:54] And they said, they hadn't looked at the website.
[00:16:56] Zac: And then he was done.
[00:16:57] David: said, why should I even have a meeting
[00:16:59] Zac: [00:17:00] Right.
[00:17:00] David: you're coming in for a marketing job? But, you know, so it's kind of what you're, what you're saying, you know, of like basic, simple. Things like that. I think that's a, that's a, and, and, and for the people who are listening, cause we do have, there's a lot of people, you know, who are going for these interviews, you know, who
[00:17:14] Zac: Mm mm.
[00:17:15] David: doing the interviewing. And I think the part you said about the questions you ask, and I would go further, and I think you said it's like even the followup that you come back with of like, Hey, we had this conversation. It was great. By the way, I went and did a bunch of work. Hey Zach, I really enjoyed the conversation, but I also thought this, this, and this, and this, like how many people do that?
[00:17:35] And, and I mean, I could probably count on two hands. I mean, maybe the best execs I ever hired did, did that. I
[00:17:42] Zac: Right?
[00:17:42] David: but in general people that it's back to the point of operating at average or operating above, like most people just don't even put that, that in, but I guess to your point, you don't, you know, that they're not, they can't be passionate if they're not doing that
[00:17:55] Zac: Yeah. And I, I've certainly seen, I mean, people are busy and people have lots of stuff and I wouldn't expect [00:18:00] everybody to think about things as maybe at a company I'm running, they're interviewing for as I would, right? But if you're really interested, I would expect you to kind of not be able to stop yourself from Knowing more from checking out from being easier.
[00:18:19] Hey, can I get a free account? Um, like I want to try it That that's so big. And of course, you know me or I think you if you're coming you'd be like, yes, of course Right. I would love you to try it right and so I think like that's pretty basic and it's it's kind of unfortunate because I do think a lot of people, you know get into an interview process and they're really trying to prove their qualifications And it's a hard, you know, kind of maybe unfair power dynamic and whatnot But I've found the best employees I've ever hired have been just active users, or parts of the community, or just super interested in the problem set.
[00:18:53] And frankly, after that, we'll work on your skills. Like, you know, we're all in a place of learning. Um, and so if we can hire for [00:19:00] that, like, obviously, and then I, I would always repeat in my, going back to my EOS thing, I'd, I'd actually just read out my VTO. Here's our values. I just want to tell you what we're all about.
[00:19:10] Like, we're all about community. This is really important to us. Why do we do that? A, B, and C, right? Um, we believe we're aggressive. We want to move fast. You know, like, da, da, da, da, da. Like, we want to win our industry. You know, da, da, da, da, da, da. Like, whatever it is, right? And, um, if you lay those out, a lot of people will say, actually, I'm kind of looking for, you know, I've got three kids at home, and I want to travel, and I've got this side project.
[00:19:33] I'm not really all in to that. And you're like, okay, well, maybe that's not, Maybe this is not the right company for you at this time, right? And so aligning first on values and then telling people very clearly what you're, the big mission that you're, the BHAG you're trying to go for, people will get attached to it or they'll be kind of just tactical and I want the people who are attached to it.
[00:19:57] David: a second,
[00:19:58] Zac: Yeah.
[00:19:58] David: that, you know, you've said now a [00:20:00] couple times, a decade, two decades, like you're going out. Can you talk about how, how far out do you go with that vision when you're doing that? And, and I want to kind of continue on that, which is also, how do you also execute?
[00:20:17] Zac: Against a,
[00:20:18] David: know, because, you know, cause that's like a, that's, that's kind of hard. You know, it's like, Hey, that's where we're going to be in 10 years, but we have to do this today,
[00:20:26] Zac: right.
[00:20:26] David: next week. Like how, how do you tie those things together?
[00:20:30] Zac: Yeah, well, it's maybe it's been an area that I've played in and built businesses around fundamental offerings, infrastructure, primarily in digital infrastructure, cloud computing, data centers, fundamental networking and software. These are long cycles. Nobody kind of adopts things in a heartbeat. It's not a consumer business which might be, you know, very quick to adopt.
[00:20:55] There's different businesses. I've mainly focused on kind of B2B or [00:21:00] B2, what do you call it, B2D,
[00:21:01] David: It's even
[00:21:02] Zac: you know?
[00:21:02] David: mean, yeah.
[00:21:03] Zac: Yeah, like, you know, fundamental enterprise, you know, businesses where trust and long term cycles happen. Okay, fine. And I would argue the world is moving quick, but, you know, Uh, it's still kind of, I would say, almost impossible to time something within a year or two, like go build a product, a brand, get it to customers and have that happen within a micro trend of a couple of years, right?
[00:21:26] Um, it feels like, what is it? February, 2025. Like it just feels like a six months ago that chat GPT came out. I don't know. It was almost two years or whatever. Like, man, time goes by fast. And so. I find that if you're going to go build a business and you want to build something meaningful, which is, by the way, the only thing I want to work on every day, um, is, uh, is to stretch myself.
[00:21:52] And so I challenge, um, around a 10 year, 10 years for me, the easy one, right? It feels [00:22:00] good cause it's, and why does it feel good? It's far enough in the future that you don't have to actually think how you would accomplish it. Like, you can dream, which is that. Thing like, oh, I mean flying cars, like, I don't know, 2035 could happen, right?
[00:22:17] Like, you know, like, I don't know how, but like, I could see it. And so like, it allows you to kind of, what do you say? Suspend disbelief for a minute and do a little, you know, imagination, which is a great muscle. And I think that's where the most interesting ideas come from, with somebody, an entrepreneur, thinking like, well, maybe it could be totally different.
[00:22:39] Um, and so allowing yourself that space to dream without conditions of practicality, I think is important. And 10 years for me does that without being so far fetched that you couldn't envision it in your own lifetime. And for me, I'm 45 years old, like, I want to kind [00:23:00] of still see myself in the future of this thing a little bit.
[00:23:03] Um, and so, so the 10 year outbound is, it feels really comfortable. And then you can kind of, if you feel like you've got a good viewpoint. For example, when I started Packet in 2014, it also, I, I do the reverse. I look back 10 years, you know, so that helps me just gain perspective of like, well, was it really that impossible?
[00:23:24] And in 2014 we started Packet 2004, five, the iPhone was not even out. So like, I'm like, wow, like my life is really different from pre-phone. Pre streaming video, pre, like, 2G, 3G, like, everything is different for me in 2014 where software is moving, you know, rapidly and cloud computing exists and, you know, people are highly connected.
[00:23:50] I was like, wow, I guess 2025, I didn't envision, you know, generative AI, but I was like, why wouldn't we be talking at walls and stuff like that? It was a definite [00:24:00] concept that I thought about. And, um, you So I think look back to look forward helps just to give that kind of perspective. Um, and, and then, you know, what, once you do that, like you kind of ground yourself around this kind of future thing, well, then you can start to like, you know, approach the innovation.
[00:24:19] All right, well, how would we get there? Okay, well, what can we do about that now to prove that thesis or to learn more or to build a foundational product that actually fits? And then you just use that 10 year vision as a litmus test on your decisions. So that way, as you're planning out your quarter, you say, well, is that going to get me to the 10 year thing?
[00:24:39] Like, am I going to make progress towards it? I'm not going to get there, but am I going to make progress? And part of that might get the right funding, find a first customer, you know, build the first rev of your product. Um, like that's all towards some big giant thing that's going to take a long time. Um, and in like Packet's case, you know, we wanted to connect [00:25:00] hardware no matter what it was with a developer writing software.
[00:25:04] No matter what he or she was doing with it. And that goal was like, we envision specialized computers. We said, it's not just going to be Intel x86 boxes of 2014. It's going to be little ARM boxes. It's going to be GPUs. It's going to be specialized computers. Software is going to move everywhere. How can we connect those two things?
[00:25:22] And, um, that was the mission. And then we worked every day to be like, well, would that make, that possible. And that allowed us to break it down actually pretty easily. And we had a couple of, it was actually easier to disqualify things out. We had a couple of choices very early on, as early companies do, which is like, well, we would just kind of take a shortcut here.
[00:25:45] And, you know, we'd make it work for the computers that are here today, like x86 boxes. And I said, no, that won't help us for. software, no matter what hardware. I said, so we need to go back and make a multi [00:26:00] arch. So we need to support ARM64. Like, let's practice with an arch from the beginning. So we would have both x86 and arch64.
[00:26:07] And that was a lot more work. But we said, just doing it on one, it was not going to practice the muscle necessary for us to go to anything. So we needed to build a foundational offering that could think in multiple architectures. So that was like an example of what we had to like stop, you know, not do something that was actually a shortcut and work towards a larger mission, even in a very quarter.
[00:26:31] David: how often would you tell the company the 10 year vision? Was it every month, every quarter, once a year,
[00:26:38] Zac: I think communication rituals, you know, are really important. Um, if, uh, and so for us, we had, uh, uh, a Monday all hands that was highly scripted, 25 minutes. Yep. Every Monday at noon. Um, and it was, you know, recorded for our remote employees, um, that were in different time zones or, or whatnot. And, uh, [00:27:00] we scripted it pretty well.
[00:27:01] And the first five minutes was a culture segment that, uh, we hired a gentleman, Ty Gibbons, who was an artist. Um, and he would, um, record or make a song or, uh, showcase the art from our various employees that kind of aligned to our culture. And that was like how we instituted that. So. I mean, he made a five minute tiny desk concert and, you know, he did, he, he, he solicited employees who were great skateboarders or whatever.
[00:27:29] And he did stuff and that, that was our creative outlet for kind of showcasing our culture. And that's where we repeated our mission and values around that. So it's not like hammering people, but finding ways that people would become interested in it.
[00:27:42] David: What was the rest? I'm curious. What was the rest of the all hands kind
[00:27:45] Zac: Ha ha well, we always knew that like not everybody showed up on time. So the first five minutes was like You know a song, a beatbox. We also did like mixtapes, just other ways to get people aligned with what we, what [00:28:00] our passions were because we were all about the people, you know, it was kind of like one of our values.
[00:28:04] And craft, craft not crap, was You know, an important thing. So we did craft and we made time for that. And so our five minute all hands, and then we introduce new employees or anniversaries, um, people who had been around the company so that a growing company would know each other. Um, we reviewed our scorecard, which is like where we were doing.
[00:28:23] Um, that was something we showcased transparently to our whole company. Yeah. Like the things that we were judging ourselves off of, we would go over and then we'd, um, we'd have a time for if we had a special announcement or anything else like that. And then we usually showcased a customer or an employee, um, story.
[00:28:42] And then we, and then we're done. Don't waste anybody's time. Was like,
[00:28:46] David: cool.
[00:28:47] Zac: number one.
[00:28:48] David: How long was the total, the whole
[00:28:49] Zac: 25 minutes.
[00:28:50] David: Did You
[00:28:51] Zac: you
[00:28:51] gotta produce it.
[00:28:52] Oh, if I ran it, it would be like three hours. You know? And so, And it would be me [00:29:00] talking, I'd be like, Oh, I had all these things, and then now, so, Ty ran it, um, which was awesome. Yeah, Ty ran it, and I had my couple things to do on, and we all had a role, but yeah, 25 minutes, done, done. Start on time, end early if we can.
[00:29:16] And that was just because we, one of our things was velocity in the company too, and we're just like, no, it's gonna waste your time. But it did give us like, I'm gonna call it snackable ways to keep the company aligned, you know, help them understand where we were and make them, you know, help them be part of the process with us.
[00:29:33] David: I want to, I want to shift gears a little bit to go to market.
[00:29:36] Zac: Yeah.
[00:29:37] David: you know, I think that's something that you are, uh, very good at and you've, you've done to your point with your particular businesses, the enterprise, the B2B, um, whatever you want to call it. Um, can we talk about like how, start with like, how'd you get your first five customers at Packit?
[00:29:55] Zac: Hmm. Well, there's, um, uh, [00:30:00] something somebody told me recently in developer marketing. Um, I always knew that I was targeting a, uh, we, we, in this kind of EOS VTO process, who's the customer is a big part of the question. Like, what are we doing here, right? And we had a nuanced view upon that, like we, although we targeted the developer user, our customers were the top 1000 technology enabled enterprises of today or the future.
[00:30:28] David: And
[00:30:30] Zac: means we were not building a product that was actually for everybody. It's pretty exclusive. Why we were doing that? Because I think it was hard for us to identify. Um, we felt that the kind of biggest, most important companies of today, or that we're trying to become the biggest and most important companies of tomorrow, that actually helps you start with a two person startup, um, uh, where technology is at the heart of their competitive advantage.
[00:30:56] And that allowed us to really focus in on our, who our features and whatnot [00:31:00] were. So that was first and foremost, like, who's the customer? We were very clear on that from the beginning. Um,
[00:31:05] David: list, those thousand, was that a named
[00:31:07] Zac: no,
[00:31:08] David: list?
[00:31:09] Zac: No, because like, I can't predict all the thousand most interesting, you know, companies of the future. And like,
[00:31:14] David: valid. Yep.
[00:31:16] Zac: I mean, you can do the ones of today, but oftentimes I think as a startup, you'll notice that targeting like the super biggest companies of the world is like a way to get killed.
[00:31:24] Right. Um, and so we said, Hey, that's our target. Cause we see that they have complex requirements that really see That what we're going to offer and be the best in the world, that is super important to them. But, you know, they might not be ready to do it, but they might buy, you know, some other company that, that, that, that is ready to do it and trying to take over that.
[00:31:43] And so we wanted to go for that user and that customer. And so, so first and foremost, like, understand who that is. And then what I did is me and some of my executive team, um, We spent a lot of time building, building our own, like, company and personal brand around this. [00:32:00] We wanted to be the number one trusted voice for the future of fundamental technology, um, to be used for software no matter what it was.
[00:32:10] And so we, um, we approached this as a brand building exercise. And so I, Did a lot of, you know, as I would say, like one on one, I'll, I'll convince the whole world one, one person at a time if I need to. But it did a lot of talks, a lot of speaking, a lot of writing, a lot of blog posts, a lot of medium articles, a lot of commenting in, you know, threads on GitHub.
[00:32:35] Like I wanted to engage. Yeah. Yeah. That was like a huge part of my job, probably 50, 60%. Now that gave me a two sided. Not only could I. Turn into the authoritative expert on this kind of problem set. Um, I could also learn a ton, right? From the most interesting people. And so that was first step number one.
[00:32:59] [00:33:00] Um, because I firmly believe that big enterprises to small, they don't buy from companies, they buy from people. And I really needed to get some people to trust us, um, in an abnormal way and go on a journey. Cause I was never promising that the product. that you could use today was actually the thing you were buying.
[00:33:21] You're buying our future. You're aligning with us. And that's how, like, I think two and a half years in, we won the contract with Sprint to power their mobile network, which is insane because they shouldn't pick us. But what they were trying to do was build a mobile network for the future. Um, and they felt that we were the most aligned.
[00:33:41] And, you know, that we were thinking out towards the same way they were. Now it was an incubated project. They went and built their, a separate network from their kind of core consumer network, which was like smart, you know, but that was like the, an example of how we won early customers, which, you know, and that's different from users because we had a ton of users.[00:34:00]
[00:34:00] We wanted to create a free tier. We couldn't. Infrastructure is hard. Um, so we gave out where we could to communities, open source ecosystems, et cetera. And then we made it as friction free as we could for new users to start adopting our value and giving us feedback. But we never were confused. Actually, I had to explain this so many times to my board.
[00:34:22] Um, they're like, look, you have like 100, 000 in revenue. You've figured it out. I'm like, those are just my users who are paying to try and tell me about the thing. They're not my customers. That's not our target. They're paying. I value them. I'm going to support them. But that is not where I'm going. We've got like a multi layered cake.
[00:34:38] I've got to get to the top. Some of those, it turns out, like, one of my first users was Mitchell, um, at HashiCorp, and he, you know, became a great, they became a great customer, and a great, I'm going to call it a future company, you know, top player. Top company of the world based upon technology. Um, but they were like him and Armand and like two people at the time.
[00:34:58] So it was not yet [00:35:00] there. And so the confuse, like sometimes this kind of like dichotomy of the user, which is adopting and testing and using and telling you versus your customer. Um, which was Sprint. Um, you know, they're not the same, right? And so, um, that confused my, my, my board for a little while. So we got a lot of users, and then we started through this halo effect to get people who came to us and said, I'm really trying to run ARM servers out at the edge because I got this machine learning thing.
[00:35:28] Or like, I'm trying to do this thing and it's not what the normal cloud computing can offer for me. Or, For example, the Cloud Native Computing Foundation came to us and said, we really want to build for multi arch, which is what you're talking about all the time.
[00:35:42] David: Hmm.
[00:35:43] Zac: And we believe in that too. Um, and so then Arm came to us and AMD and they said, Hey, would we, how could we work with you?
[00:35:51] And so that was how we got our first customers.
[00:35:53] David: Hmm. When you talk about being out there doing the talks and being, you know, face to [00:36:00] face and writing stuff on Medium, was that natural to you? Like, are you a good public speaker, kind of that you like doing that, and that was easy, or?
[00:36:09] Zac: you know what? Uh, it's funny. I've become better at it. How about that? Um, I love intimate conversations. It's my happy place. Um, but most people would assume I'm like a huge extrovert, right? I think is what
[00:36:28] David: yeah,
[00:36:28] Zac: people would assume. Um, but I also went to school as a music performance major, um, where I always got nervous performing in front of people, but then you kind of learn to manage it, right?
[00:36:40] So you learn, How to do it better and perform. And so I had to practice and I was okay with that. But like public speaking, I would used to get so nervous. Put me in front of a conference with 500, 000 people. I get all clammy and stuff. And now I'm much better at it because I practiced it and, you know, overcame some of those, you know, insecurities and [00:37:00] nerves and, you know, became more confident in my own voice.
[00:37:04] And that's helped me over the years.
[00:37:05] David: I say it all the time, I'm pretty open, that I hated, public speaking. Like, probably, you know, same. You know, I would avoid actually good events because I didn't want to
[00:37:19] Zac: They were going to make you public speak.
[00:37:20] David: Exactly, like literally, I would avoid them. And it took me Took me a long time, but I, but I came to the realization I needed to.
[00:37:29] I
[00:37:29] Zac: Yeah.
[00:37:30] David: think that is the real, you know, and a lot of, uh, and I'm not even, you know, I'm not a technical founder. Then when you go to technical founders, it's usually for many of
[00:37:38] Zac: Potentially even harder.
[00:37:39] David: you know? And, and I tell people you need to, and I actually think, especially in today's world, you need to have that brand.
[00:37:48] I think it's an important part of whatever. you're, you're doing and I, but I do think it's, it's, it's hard, but anyway, so I like asking that question to people because, because if someone saw you [00:38:00] speak today, they'd be like, damn, he's like, he's amazing. And
[00:38:04] Zac: Right. It's a natural.
[00:38:05] David: that that actually took work to, to,
[00:38:08] to
[00:38:08] Zac: Quite a bit. And like, I, you know, it's funny because, um, a good friend, Dan Kahn, he passed away a couple years ago, but he was the head of the CNCF. And he was an amazing, like he could give a keynote, like nobody's business. And it was so good. And if you go look up some of his keynotes on Kubernetes or in the cloud native, it, they're just incredible.
[00:38:31] And he had the same thing. He practiced. I asked him, why are you so good at this? He's like, cause I practice like a lot. I was like, and, um, and so that helped me too. Like sometimes in the end, if it's a topic that I feel really intimate with, I, it's because I've tried it on 20, times. and I'm, you know, I'm, I'm in a place where I'm, I'm good, which was the same thing by the way, when I was a music performer.
[00:38:54] If you hadn't rehearsed or practiced, of course you were nervous.
[00:38:57] David: Yeah,
[00:38:58] Zac: Um, but if you, you know, [00:39:00] really were ready, like then, you know, got easier and you were able to overcome nerves or other things like that. So I suspect it's the same in sports or anything else like that, where you're performing at a high level.
[00:39:10] And I would say as a CEO or a founder, this comes back to being a 8 out of 10, man. Like. You gotta, you gotta perform at a high level. It's a competitive market. It's hard.
[00:39:21] David: Yeah, I think that's good. Yeah. Um, so, so, you know, you've been, you, I said in the intro, you know, you definitely OG of the, you know, enterprise tech scene in, in New York. Um,
[00:39:31] Zac: you saying I'm old and have gray hair? Come on.
[00:39:33] David: I mean,
[00:39:34] Zac: Yes. Yeah, it's fine.
[00:39:35] David: you know, um, it's, uh, know, what, what have you seen in New York? Like when you started, you know, and you started your career here, like what was the scene like here and how do you, how do you kind of compare that to where we are today?
[00:39:51] Zac: Yeah. Well, uh, I had a great mentor. Uh, I love New York. I grew up in Southern California and I moved here when I was 17. And I just love the [00:40:00] energy and density of this city. Um, and the ability to interact with people of all walks of life because you rubbed shoulders with them on Broadway or ran into them, you know, in the subway or, you know, added, had to face the same, you know, kind of urban, you know, situation.
[00:40:15] So,
[00:40:15] David: Hey,
[00:40:16] Zac: that is cool. I, um, my, my girlfriend now, my, my wife at the, at the time used to get really annoyed with me in my early 20s because there was an elevator that we'd have to take over it. Like 190th Street where we lived, and it was like a very long subway elevator, like two minutes long. And I couldn't stand the silence.
[00:40:34] I had to be like, Hey! What's your name? I would talk to the name and she was like, shut up. Like, it's a stranger. You don't know them. They don't want to talk to you. I was like, ah, they're no stranger. I just haven't met them yet. Um, and so, uh, so, so anyways, I, I take New York as having this kind of like density of, of people and ambition.
[00:40:53] Nobody said New York city is an easy place to be, so you can kind of align with that. So when I first got started in [00:41:00] business, 2001, uh, post 9 11, um, You know, what I took advantage of was just the density of humans. Um, but we didn't really have a density of technology scenes. So you'd go swim in other circles.
[00:41:13] There are a lot of finance, you know, banks were kind of the king of the castle, right? Um, and kind of real estate companies, you know, other things like that. Um, and so being, I remember I tried to get a lease, uh, at this office building. And for the, I think Raj and I, my, my co founder, we, we had to like keep going back to try and convince them that like, Having a tech company as a tenant wouldn't be a bad idea.
[00:41:37] Like a total death, you know, sentence for them. It took us like a year to get them to allow us to put in a bid for an office space. You know, cause they're like, this tech stuff is just a trend. Like it's just a bubble. I was like, all right. So, so in that way it was really different. You know, all the camaraderie there, you know, there wasn't a lot of the startup ecosystem that you could lean off of.
[00:41:59] [00:42:00] VCs, there was none, you know. Um, and so you would go to like a bank to get a loan or something and then they'd laugh you out of there. And so it was kind of lonely in that regard, but then it was at the same time a little bit, you had to make your own audience. So meetups became more And, you know, technical meetups and other kinds of ways to bring, you know, what was a pretty niche technology scene together.
[00:42:25] Um, and, uh, and that provided a great set of relationships. Um, and then I just learned that, you know, I had a mentor tell me I was very globally minded. So we had built an office in Singapore. We had like, uh, locations like 10 or 15 places for our product around the world. And I would always be like, Oh, we need this customer and this market and this customer.
[00:42:47] And this friend, um, he told me, he's like, listen, you idiot, look out your window. Uh, we are down here in lower Manhattan. He's like, there are like more companies within like your, your six blocks of what you can see [00:43:00] than you could ever possibly deal with with your entire company. Like stop being lazy, get out there and go meet them.
[00:43:08] And that helped me. That's how I built my first business. You know, uh, we just. We hustle to meet more people, and I've continued to live in lower Manhattan because I can do six to eight meetings a day. So even that, that personal network and capability to find new companies, new people, meet, meet other perspectives, that's unrivaled.
[00:43:29] That's awesome. So I still consider New York a great place to build a business.
[00:43:33] David: how do you feel it is now, like now building, you know, you, you're involved with a lot of companies and incubating companies, and how do you feel the market is now?
[00:43:44] Zac: You mean specific in New York, or?
[00:43:46] David: Yeah, specifically in New York,
[00:43:48] Zac: Well, it's no longer considered to be some red headed stepchild of technology, right? It's now considered to be, preeminently, like, maybe the One of the top places to build a tech company. [00:44:00] Um, and so venture backed businesses are not abnormal, which is great. There's a great and thriving venture capital scene.
[00:44:07] Um, there's a lot of founders here. There are people who recognize that the diversity of businesses that we have in New York is an advantage. If you're building into Europe and other places that were a great place, a lot of people come through New York City. So, if you have a cross section of customers and partners, you know, New York's a great place to be like, next time you're coming by, which is usually on a regular basis, uh, it's good, right?
[00:44:29] So, I think New York's a great place to build a business. Um, it certainly has its challenges. I, I go, I still even in the businesses I, uh, I've incubated or, or participate, I go on founders trips, I go to the Valley, I go to London, I go and meet more, get different perspective. Um, I think that's been super helpful in my own, just like, Luckily, in New York, we have kind of an international viewpoint anyways.
[00:44:54] And I think that that really is, uh, aligned with the future of most businesses. [00:45:00] So, uh, I think that's helped us. It's a good scene, man. It's fun. Um, I wish this whole, like, commercial real estate thing would get figured out, though. Cause, um,
[00:45:08] David: Hundred
[00:45:09] Zac: still feel like there's this, like, weird setup that, you know, we could do.
[00:45:12] I think that's, that's hard, you know, and, um, you know, it's, it's unfortunate given like there's such availability of real estate in some ways. So,
[00:45:25] David: Yeah, um, all right, let's, I wanna, I want, before we get to your background some more, I want to ask you the, the last question in this section, which is, what is the biggest challenge you've faced at any of the companies that you've started how did you overcome that challenge?
[00:45:43] Zac: yeah. Well, when you preamble this for me, um, it came to me pretty quickly, right? And so, uh,
[00:45:51] David: Instantaneously.
[00:45:53] Zac: pretty much right away, right? And I'm going to consider it to be one of the hardest periods of my life, right? Um. And [00:46:00] this was, uh, my, my partner and I and my first company, I joined this company, Voxel, very early on. I was young, uh, 21 years old, and Raj was the same age.
[00:46:11] Um, we built this company. It was our life's work. Um, and we both were, you know, As it were, um, and spending, you know, 16, 17 hours a day working together to try and build this company, which, which we did. And, um, six, seven years in, um, we had gone through this really hard period where the financial crisis of 2008, um, had actually been super positive for our business.
[00:46:40] Because when people, like Funding dried up and capital and whatnot. Companies, which was the same time that the internet was growing really rapidly, right? People were, iPhones were getting out there. Cloud computing was starting to happen. Applications and video were occurring. You know, so like [00:47:00] technology was becoming, SAS was starting to happen with like Salesforce and things like that.
[00:47:04] People were using technology. A lot, businesses and consumers, um, but people also had this, like, huge capital problem. And so they outsourced. They outsourced to cloud computing. They outsourced to hosting companies and data centers like us. And it was on our balance sheet. And so we had to go spend the money.
[00:47:24] They were coming, and we had the best sales months ever during the financial crisis. But we didn't have any money. And we didn't know how to get any money. And what happened is like Raj and I were such diametrically opposed people in terms of how we worked. Um, I don't think he checked his voicemail for 10 years.
[00:47:45] I like, you know, responded to every email within five minutes. Um, you know, like we were just very different humans. He stretched and dreamed about the future. And I was like, what are we going to do about payroll tomorrow? And, um, In ways, we were like great [00:48:00] partners because we were different, and in other ways, we were so incompatible, and we were fighting
[00:48:05] David: Hmm.
[00:48:05] Zac: every day, right, to the point where it was like mommy and daddy yelling at each other, and it was uncomfortable, and we both wanted the same thing, but we didn't know enough about ourselves, and I think we didn't know enough about how to work with each other.
[00:48:22] And so we almost, you know, almost split the company and just left, right? And in the end, we decided to fire ourselves and demote ourselves. And we got a, we went out and both agreed. I remember this. We would, we took a long walk around lower Manhattan and, uh, we basically agreed to hire somebody to replace us as, as leaders of the business.
[00:48:41] We needed somebody to come in and do a better job than we could because we were not able to do it. And that was so personal. You know, for us, it was like our whole identity. I know it was for Raj and for me. And yet we, we wanted this thing to succeed and that's where we agreed. Um, and so, uh, [00:49:00] you know, we ended up bringing in a CO, it was a very hard process, um, but it was the best decision we ever made in the end.
[00:49:06] Um, we learned so much, um, the company, you know, I was say, Flourish to a degree, like way more of its potential and most of what I've learned in how to run a business came from, from, from that process. So, um, it was super hard. I didn't think we were going to make it. We almost sold the business for literally zero dollars.
[00:49:26] I'm not joking. We went to Denver and we were going to raise this capital, um, from this firm who shall not be named. And, um, They were going to own like 65 percent of the business. We would get 0 out of it. And we would have to like re earn our equity. And I remember coming back from there being like, Screw this.
[00:49:47] We're not going to do that. We're going to make a different choice. We're going to figure it out and get somebody who can help us lead this business. And so, that's what we did.
[00:49:54] David: did both of you stay, I mean, you stayed both of, like,
[00:49:58] Zac: yeah, we both stayed. Um, [00:50:00] it was really interesting because we had to learn how to be managed and also be accountable.
[00:50:04] David: right,
[00:50:05] Zac: and it was like, it was a night and day. I remember, um, this gentleman who came in, Raul Martinez. I've learned so much from him. Um, and just as such a dear friend of mine now and he, he came in and like within a couple of weeks he was running a management meeting with us and he was just like, you idiot, right?
[00:50:28] He's like, you have a business. That is in the right time at the right, you know, right place at the right time. Your customers are literally falling over you to give money and like, buy. You have all of the like, right technology, and yet you can't just figure out how to get along so that you can win? And we're like, I should probably just do that, right?
[00:50:54] It's like, shut up, shut up. [00:51:00] It was great. But you know, we're young too, right? I think maturity, like I was like learning how to grow up too, right? At the time it was probably 28. Um, and when that's your only thing in your company is your life and vice versa, I didn't have a good outlet for a therapist. I didn't have anybody to talk to.
[00:51:20] So that was me and Raj just putting all of our energies against each other. And, oh man, it's so much better. We're great friends now. We've continued to work together. I've invested in his business. And him and my, he's my like number one confidant. Um, because we can so understand each other. Um, and, uh, that's been a special relationship.
[00:51:37] But I thought it would break us. Well,
[00:51:44] David: an entrepreneur? Like from a, from your, from childhood? Cause you, it sounds like you have kind of the arts upbringing, you know?
[00:51:52] Zac: you know, um, I always was, um, I was a kid, I have an identical twin brother, Jacob, and I was [00:52:00] always a kid who was hustling for money. Um, I always had some side gig. I grew up in Southern California, so whether I was like mowing lawns after school or like, Figuring out, I was teaching bass lessons because I played the double bass.
[00:52:14] I was teaching, like, I was always finding a way to make a buck. And, um, so I guess in that regard I had some natural inclination, but I didn't see it as entrepreneurship. Um, I got in this situation, my dad was in construction, ready mix concrete, you know, pretty blue collar upbringing, and, uh, and he lost his job during a big recession.
[00:52:37] When I was right, like, Middle school, yeah, 12, 13. And I remember how hard that was. He didn't work for like two years. Because there was no work. He was in construction, he hadn't gone to college, that was his, his, um, he would be part of the like, um, a company, and they didn't fire him, they just like furloughed.
[00:52:57] And I remember how [00:53:00] much that devastated him, because he couldn't provide. That's what he, he desperately wanted to work, but he couldn't. And so, um, A, we were always trying to figure out how to help. Make some money here, do this, and whatever. And B, I kind of knew at that point, I always wanted to be my own boss.
[00:53:19] I thought, you know what? Like, I'm gonna control my destiny. Not be subjected to In my dad's case, you know, a union situation where they, they furloughed him because there was only X amount of work and they didn't want to, you know, They had to spread it around. And so I was like, I want to be my own boss.
[00:53:38] So that, that was kind of like innate in me. I ended up going into music, um, and getting really involved in that. And frankly, you know, funny enough, it's not that much different because as a musician, you're always gigging and freelancing. So, you know, most musicians don't belong to the Philharmonic. Most musicians got to take church gigs and do this and that, which I was doing throughout college, uh, high school and then [00:54:00] college.
[00:54:00] Um, But then, you know, when I graduated college, I was just, uh, I was a Juilliard and, um, I was with like the one percenters of the profession that I was wanting to be at. And yet, out of my graduating class of a hundred people, one had a job. And I was like, those odds don't look good because I'm definitely not at the top of this class.
[00:54:24] I'm like somewhere in the middle. And so I'm like, if that's it. And I was like, wow, this is just a tough market to, I loved what I did, but I just couldn't see myself waiting around for somebody to die or retire in an orchestra. So I could fight with all of my friends to get the job. You know, I was like, I want to be in a place where there's more opportunity and more expansion.
[00:54:46] So, I looked to get hired. It was actually really hard to get hired as a Juilliard grad in anything, let alone in something that wasn't music. Um, and so I said, I'll just make my own company. And that's how I [00:55:00] decided to get into entrepreneurship because I was like, well, if nobody's going to hire me, I'm just going to have to go do my own thing.
[00:55:06] David: And you're still doing music today.
[00:55:08] Zac: I am. Yeah. In fact, I was at rehearsal late last night, so there's bags under my eyes. I'm going to give that as the excuse. Uh, the, um,
[00:55:16] David: where do you, where do you play?
[00:55:18] Zac: Um, well I'm lucky enough to perform in two different community orchestras. One where we support emerging conductors. We're like their free orchestra where they get to rehearse.
[00:55:28] And the other is a chamber music orchestra. Um, and these are all kind of non professional musicians. They're people who went to conservatory or played. They're doctors, lawyers, tech entrepreneurs, whatever. And they play, you know, this, you know, the violin or in my case the bass. So It's really a pleasure. I, for two things, first off, I didn't play for 20 years.
[00:55:53] So when I started my company, I actually sold my bass. My mom got pretty angry. This is really nice. Um, and used that money [00:56:00] to start my first company. you know, which kind of, I have to appreciate my mom for being so nice. Uh, cause here I had gone to Juilliard and done all this stuff. And then I was like, Nope, it's on the base.
[00:56:10] Got us to go start a web hosting company. Um, so I didn't play for 20 years, but then during the pandemic, I stopped traveling and I picked it back up. Um, and so it's been a great outlet, uh, to develop a hobby again. Um, but the thing I appreciate most about playing in a orchestra. Um, is that number one, everybody is a high performer.
[00:56:36] You know, they practice, they show up ready to do it, um, it's a craft. Um, you have to have either a combination of talent and grit and determination. So, individually, people have to be exceptional at the thing they do. But then they got to come together and be completely selfless and follow the conductor and blend into the section and Everybody together now and it's the only [00:57:00] thing I've tried to you know companies You've been part of I've been where you know when they're like humming Right where it's just working and you're like damn like everything was like that's the best and yet It the the the cycle for feeling that or figuring that out is actually quite complicated And In an orchestra, you see it right away.
[00:57:22] Like, you hear it in rehearsal. You know, you know when it's happening because it sounds good, right? We're all hitting the same beat at the same time. If you're not, you're off beat together. That is actually pretty clear to see. Like, even an amateur will understand that. And so, for me, it's one of those scenarios where you can really work on a high performing organization and you get the result right away.
[00:57:44] Um, in a company, It takes a while to feel that, right? It takes a while to figure that out or see the results of it. But when you get there, man, it's an amazing experience.
[00:57:53] David: Um, you mentioned before your family, your wife, your kids, um, do you expose them to? [00:58:00] The businesses that you've been a part of, that you've started that, what you do today? Like, do you do, do they, are they part of that or do you kind of protect them from the UPS craziness.
[00:58:12] Zac: I think my wife would say something, she says, I'm pretty sure he has something to do with computers, would be her description. Um, you know, when I was first starting a business, and I think this is the entrepreneur's, you know, challenge, I used to bring my, all of my passion and all of my, pain and all of my frustrations back home to my wife and tell her all about it.
[00:58:37] She's like, how was your day? I'm like, oh, let me tell you about it. And I realized with pretty quickly that that actually wasn't beneficial for her or for me. Number one, I was really just unloading a whole lot of my context so that I could have like Not like she could do anything about it, just to have the empathy.
[00:58:58] And, [00:59:00] um, and that's just not how I wanted to spend the time and energy with my partner with. And so, I, I don't, I stopped doing that, basically. Um, you know, and I found other outlets with other entrepreneurs, mentors, other people where you could really, like, go through all the You know, all the stuff, right?
[00:59:22] Which wasn't in my company necessarily, but with other people. Um, and that way I could have a more measured way to engage with my wife around. How was your day, honey? Um, but then over the years I've exposed, my kids have found that as long as I have that outlet, that I can talk and share without having to, Go through, you know, the thousand gun battles and tell you, you know, 97 stories of this customer.
[00:59:47] I can just be like, here's why this is interesting, or here's what we're working on. And that can be enough that I don't have to bring, you know, You know, my kids or, or, uh, my wife through the whole thing. But my kids end up being interested. I'm not shy. I [01:00:00] expose them to what I do. I don't hide a conversation I'm having.
[01:00:04] I love it when they enter and do a Zoom call or I think it's great. You know, I'm, um, it's kind of what dad does. So, you know. I want them to be exposed as much as they want to be. Um, and now I got my 15 year old helping me, uh, do some of the books. And, you know, like I was like, why don't you be useful? Like, it's like, what are you doing?
[01:00:23] And I'm like, I'm balancing QuickBooks. It's actually not glorious, but I will teach you how. And he's interested. So
[01:00:30] David: what are you doing now? I mean, you, you're doing a lot of different things. Um, you know, what, from a business perspective before I want to go to the nonprofit in a second, but from a business perspective, what are you doing now?
[01:00:42] Zac: Well, I've done a bunch of investing, so I've been fortunate enough to invest in 50 or 60 different early stage companies. Um, some are now, you know, maturing their 10 years in. That's super fun. I've loved watching. I just, I know I love the early messy part of company building. Um, [01:01:00] and so that's been super rewarding for me.
[01:01:02] Um, but actually now I'm incubating my own stuff. And so, um, over the past year I've been incubating an open source business. Um, really trying to put in practice some of the stuff that I've learned, um, and also the areas that I'm really interested in. Um, and so that's been, uh, been going well. It's fun. I'm building basically what would be considered a open source network cloud, like a, um, a way to connect businesses, apps, and kind of, uh, applications in an AI world together.
[01:01:31] Um, I really believe in ecosystem connections and businesses around building more value and kind of a bigger tent. So that's been super fun. Um, and then of all things, uh, I've been, uh, uh, helping and participating in, I'm not gonna give all the details, but, uh, buying part of a professional sports team. So.
[01:01:55] Yeah.
[01:01:58] David: I
[01:01:58] Zac: It's very, very minor, very [01:02:00] small, very small team. It doesn't have to be a big one, but I'm fascinated in brands. And I have watched, I'm not a sports guy at all, but I've watched it with my kids. And so I had an opportunity to invest in a Premier League team last year, and I did so. And it was really fun and I, I love the process of it, but it's a, it's kind of a way to lose money.
[01:02:26] And so, and so I, I kind of found a different opportunity that is a little bit more in my league as it were. And, and frankly, I think it's a fascinating time for global audiences and like how you probably watch your kids consume content. It's a little different than, than how we consume content. And so I just think the times are a changing and, um, with, with the, a friend of mine who had impressed this upon me is like the cost of content creation is going to zero, you know, through AI and cloud computing and whatnot, that's just going [01:03:00] to change who can access what, where it can get distributed to, but brands and experiences are still super important.
[01:03:06] So I'm playing around with that too.
[01:03:08] David: cool. And on the non profit side, because you do a lot and actually, you know, one of the that I've enjoyed kind of helping has been Pursuit, who you introduced me to. And, um, I, I had Jukay on this podcast
[01:03:21] Zac: Amazing.
[01:03:22] David: but, but you're doing, you do a lot of that
[01:03:25] Zac: Yeah.
[01:03:25] David: Like, can you talk a little bit about, about that?
[01:03:28] Zac: I participate in a couple ways. I mean, I've always felt that, um, it's really important. It's actually one of my, uh, I'm not gonna call pet peeves, but hidden passions. How about that? You know that we have this incredible, um, uh, responsibility as entrepreneurs in the technology ecosystem.
[01:03:45] We've benefited from these huge societal trends. Um, but not everybody gets to participate in those for various reasons. And how could we improve that access or help people through this really, really rapidly changing world? So as you mentioned, um, I've been a [01:04:00] pretty long supporter and involved heavily in pursuit, which helps people, um, transition to careers in technology.
[01:04:06] Um, primarily as a way to, to service economic mobility. How do you give people a path that used to be go to college or more, and now is? What? Probably get involved in technology and grow with that. Um, and so giving people pathways into that. Um, I participate in bringing some of my operational side. Um, and uh, product market fit thinking.
[01:04:28] Um, to arts organizations. So I work with two different organizations here in the city to support them. Um, and figuring out their new model and their new audiences. Um, National Sawdust, uh, out of, out of Brooklyn, which is a really cutting edge, avant garde performance space. Um, and the new school, um, which has the Schneider concerts that's been around for, for decades, um, bringing high quality chamber music to the masses at low cost, um, and how to keep that, uh, going.
[01:04:57] And then I have a couple of, uh, you know, [01:05:00] pet projects, uh, help the, uh, Matt Dunn and the Center for Rural Innovation. How to bridge the rural economy. Um, uh, like centers of humans outside of New York and San Francisco who participated in technology and other great businesses, um, that, but that live elsewhere, I got attached to that because my brother, sister and parents live in rural Vermont.
[01:05:19] And I really saw some of the true barriers just in terms of ecosystem density, connectivity, you know, other things that really like got in the way of building something like this. It's not like the people in rural Vermont have any less good ideas. It's just they didn't have all the same access. Um, and so those are areas where I spend my time.
[01:05:39] Try and take some of my business learnings to those organizations. Um, and help them with that. And then of course with my, you know, financial support where it makes sense. Um, I do that as well.
[01:05:49] David: Love it. alright, last question for you. Knowing everything you know, having been through everything you've been through, if you go back to the very beginning of your career [01:06:00] and give yourself one piece of advice, what would that be? Um,
[01:06:07] Zac: but it'd be, it'd be listen more, right? Um, it'd be talk less and listen more. I had so many people come through my life that I could learn more from. And, um, oftentimes when I look back, I was too busy to tell them kind of what I knew. Which was not a lot.
[01:06:26] And so I think surrounding yourself or being, putting yourself in positions where you meet incredible people. Um, I was fortunate enough to have a bunch of those, um, by happenstance or, or, or, or whatnot, or some hard work. I just listened to them. I thought I'd be a, tell me more about you. This is, I mean, it's like, I thought about this podcast.
[01:06:46] That's what you're doing right now. And I just so appreciate it is you're asking people to tell their stories And you can learn so much from other people's experiences. And, um, we just have one lived experience, but we probably met a hundred people in the [01:07:00] past month who have one. So listening more, I think, is super valuable.
[01:07:04] I'd tell young Zach to do it.
[01:07:05] David: if people want to connect with you, what's the best way? Email or LinkedIn, or what's like the best way to connect if they want
[01:07:11] Zac: I'm not on the X. I'm not on the tweeters, um, or at least if I am, I don't remember my handles. So don't go to it. LinkedIn is great. It's ZSmith. Um, I'm on there, uh, and would love to hear from anybody if they have questions, opportunities, things that they want to share. Um, it'd be great to connect. And thank you so much, Dave, for doing this and for having me around to talk.
[01:07:30] David: Thank you. This was awesome. I'm excited. I learned some new things about you, you know, in this process. So thank you. And for everyone listening, I hope you enjoy and please share this with your networks and like, subscribe, all of that, rate the show, and we'll see you for the next episode of Not Another CEO Podcast.[01:08:00]
